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-   -   Merged: Jetstar EBA 4 (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/311095-merged-jetstar-eba-4-a.html)

blow.n.gasket 2nd Feb 2008 23:08

Well VH-JJW they had better hurry and sign them up before the next sitting of Parliament hadn't they.
Tick Tock, times running out for the Dixon Plan!:}

TurbTool 3rd Feb 2008 01:04

I take it then, that you are implying that there is a plentiful supply of pilots everywhere. No shortage of recruits. No reduction in experience requirements to keep the flow up.
Not at all. All my point was is that Jetstar is not cancelling flights for lack of tech crew, in spite of posts to that effect.

Jetstar, like Qantas and VB, still has a supply of pilots willing to join. If that should change there are still a number of things they could do to extend that supply, including reviewing past applicants who may not have made a particular score in the psyc assessment, or perhaps looking at older experienced turboprop drivers who don't yet have jet experience. Imagine if J* offerred to provide the type rating to current VB drivers at no cost. I think it would cause a stampede.

There is a pilot shortage, there is a lower experience base in Australia at this time but there is not yet a shortage of pilots at Jetstar.

strobe12 3rd Feb 2008 01:18

TurbTool, what makes u think that VB pilots would stampeded across to J*?

Not saying they wouldnt but dont know why they would. Can u give some insight?

TurbTool 3rd Feb 2008 01:27

A number that I know have had enough of constant overnights, long duty hours compared to flight time, long time away from family. A number are now quite experienced fos with no prospect of a B737 Command in their base for some time. Others just would like a choice of somewhere to live other than the big 3, SYD, BNE or MEL. Some like the idea of progressing to widebody international ops. there are quite a few good reasons. The requirement to buy an A320 endorsement is a bit of a stumbling block.

coaldemon 3rd Feb 2008 02:17

As always talk in the bar about being unhappy goes along the lines of " I'm not happy that I am doing overnights because the wife isn't happy etc" Then in the next breath "but I need the allowances I get on the overnights because the wife spends all of my salary" . Most guys consider the allowances as part of their ongoing salary so taking a Jetstar domestic position is usually a but of a fall in pay which most pilots won't do. Makes for great conversation but I doubt that a lot of guys would jump if the endorsements were salary sacrificed or bonded ( which would be the last thing the irish gnome would want as it will impact the bottom line). The only time it will come into effect is before a pilot accepts a position with VB or Jetstar.

drshmoo 4th Feb 2008 04:57

Imagine if J* offerred to provide the type rating to current VB drivers at no cost. I think it would cause a stampede.

Stampede.... stop it, it hurts

CaptCloudbuster 16th Feb 2008 01:52

Jet* "revised" EBA offer
Heard yesterday that Alan Joyce has gone against his word :rolleyes: and a tweeked EBA offer will soon be put to the divided pilot group.

So Chimbu Chuckles, given you said

the company does not need to rush back to the table given current realities and future probabilities

the reality is I think EBA 4 was as good as you were going to get

This is where the No voters royally fecked up. There was never going to be a 'return to the table' the day after a No vote, or a week, or month after. This was very clear...didn't they believe what they were told?

Just how stupid are these people?
will you now admit you were wrong (if my info proves correct) and accept that Jet* management are desperate to lock their pilots in to a substandard deal given the reality of a worldwide shortage of suitably qualified crew?

Fellow Jet* colleagues. before you vote again please first attend the AIPA roadshows coming to your respective bases around the 25th.

Information and solidarity is strength. What have you got to lose?

dodgybrothers 16th Feb 2008 02:13

Its the same agreement rolled in sugar, to be voted on before the end of workchoices:yuk:

speeeedy 16th Feb 2008 02:33

Chimbu, genex and Fistfokker, well played....NOT! :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

You must be related to that half wit brother of the ex-AIPA president who had remarkably similar predictions for the QF Short haul guys, they didn't listen and sent it back twice. The third offer was MUCH better.

If it's not a LOT better then be prepared to send it back again guys! Good Luck.

Chimbu chuckles 16th Feb 2008 03:19

Well Played?

The game is not over yet...it's only half time. The second half is going to be genuinely fascinating.

EBA 4 has not changed in any meaningful way but for the sake of pilot unity people who may have voted differently if they knew THEN what they know NOW are being given a second chance.

I think the J* management are to be applauded for their decision to allow the J* pilot body this opportunity.

If it goes down again no one at J* is under any illusions as to what will happen next.

KRUSTY 34 16th Feb 2008 03:21

Just an observation guys, when was the last time management, any management, attempted to bring forward an EBA negotiation? And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the proposal for 5 years!

Captcloudbuster is right. To allow yourselves to be rushed into an agreement at the behest of management, really should, and I may say has, set the alarm bells ringing. Airline managements all over the world know what's coming, and they probably have only 2 choices.
  • Actively attract and retain professional pilots by offering superior Terms and Conditions.
  • Seek to have the substandard Terms and Conditions of the recent past, enshrined in a long term contract.
Which one do you think Jet* management are embarking upon?

CaptCloudbuster 16th Feb 2008 04:25

If it goes down again no one at J* is under any illusions as to what will happen next.
Here's my best guess Chimbu

There is a shortage of qualified FO's available for immediate upgrade within J*'s own ranks to fill the planned expansion.

The current terms and conditions of employment are substandard.

These facts combined ensure - J* management need this EBA to get up yesterday to attract direct entry captains:eek:

Julia Gillard will be unlikely to approve the use of 457 visas.

If we act together

The Qantas Group will be forced to negotiate out of commercial necessity with QANTAS Group Pilots:ok:

G Cantstandya 16th Feb 2008 05:24


I seem to recall that you said a couple of weeks ago there will be no return to the table by management and that the JQ pilots had fecked up..

I have not seen anything that has indicated a revised eba4, if there is which you seem to think so, where do you hear this?

Also, if this has happened and it's has not greatly improved I can't see it getting up.

phantom menace 16th Feb 2008 06:35

"Julia Gillard will be unlikely to approve the use of 457 visas".
They aready have - :}

Chimbu chuckles 16th Feb 2008 06:55

Cloudbuster how do your J* colleagues fit into the AIPA grand plan as outlined in the last two AIPA newsletters?

As I read it AIPA is adamant that ALL 787s will be flown by mainline with J* 'allowed' to operate a diminishing fleet of A330s.

So how does that support AIPA's claims of protecting/enhancing the careers of ALL QF group pilots?

Some weeks ago I suggested that J* management would not rush back to the table with a BETTER offer if EBA 4 was voted down. I stand by that position.

I have heard on the grape vine that a significant number of J* pilots were considering accepting AWAs on EBA 4 T*Cs. I have further heard that some J* pilots may have voted differently had they understood that was a possible outcome.

Perhaps, JUST perhaps, J* management is considering that before going down the AWA path a revote may deliver a better outcome for all parties.

Gingerbread 16th Feb 2008 08:23

Seems that dear old Chimbu isn't as up front as he ought to be?

If Ppruners can get hold of two issues AIPA Insights dear old Chimbu refers to, the closest one can find to Chimbu's claim that "AIPA is adamant that ALL 787s will be flown by mainline with J* 'allowed' to operate a diminishing fleet of A330s", is:

"The future of Australian aviation is probably all about global mega carriers, the B787 and Qantas having sufficient pilots to flexibly crew all 115 of them. As I see it, either the Group Opportunity Allocation List (GOAL) is created as soon as possible or ultimately Qantas Mainline flies all the B787s and Qantas Jetstar all the A330s while QantasLink scales back until the global aviation industry stops exponentially growing."

Seems to an innocent bystander that AIPA's President is saying that the future prosperity of the Qantas Group is about unity and flexibility - not divide and conquer?:D

Enema Bandit's Dad 16th Feb 2008 08:46

Chimbu, another PPRUNER with a chip on his shoulder.....:hmm:

Chimbu chuckles 16th Feb 2008 09:05

No chip here...I simply hold a different, perhaps more realistic, view...only time will tell.

Keg 16th Feb 2008 10:19

Chim, another comment written by the AIPA president in a different forum....

...is the need to ensure that both Mainline and Jetstar pilots actually get to fly more than just a handful of the B787's QAL has on order...
Pretty clear there I reckon.

TurbTool 16th Feb 2008 11:04

G Cantstandya

I have not seen anything that has indicated a revised eba4, if there is which you seem to think so, where do you hear this?
If you read the first post on this topic you will probably see where somebody (Chimbu) might have gleaned that info. Don't forget it is a rumour network.

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