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-   -   Merged: Jetstar EBA 4 (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/311095-merged-jetstar-eba-4-a.html)

Enema Bandit's Dad 11th Mar 2008 00:26

Ooh, that's cutting. :eek: And Nuf was being diplomatic too.

speeeedy 11th Mar 2008 01:15

Maui,

You have just proven that you can't do (very basic) maths, makes me worry given you are supposed to be a pilot.

maui 11th Mar 2008 01:23

Speedy

Don't worryabout it. All you really need is the three times table to drive proper.

Correct me if you will

basic (787 hours) 165k
o/t rate 210/hr
level 3 18% (presumably on every hour)
retention 6% on total

Did I leave something out?

Maui

Nuthinondaclock 11th Mar 2008 01:27

Very mature response, Maui. Still can't get the numbers to $260,000+ though.

Quoting that as an average Jet* pilots' figure is like taking the figure of a Senior QF 744 Check and Training Captain the day before he retires, taking no leave, doing only SYD-LAX returns (Thereby getting massive overtime payments for the length of flight), then working extra hours and presenting that as what "Qantas pilots earn". This is something that airline management do in the media (As did Hawke the year before 1990) when they want to make out pilots as "fat cats'.

For what it's worth the figure I ran was based on a 330 line Captain doing 85 hours a month (10 overtime). The Jet* 330 guys can correct me if their annual average differs much from this. From what I believe the total figure on the 320 wouldn't be too much less as the ability to do higher hours is certainly there in S/H operations. About 10 additional hours a month (compared to the 330) would bring the figure very close though the 320 overnight (Very few?) allowances would be less.

Nuf.

Nuthinondaclock 11th Mar 2008 01:32

Typically the 18% would be on base only. If you conduct simulator exercises as a checkie you don't get to do overtime and also miss out on the allowances. That's one of the reasons they put a loading on checkies as otherwise they would actually lose salary. (Happy to be corrected by a Jet* checkie if this isn't the case.)

Nuf.

maui 11th Mar 2008 01:34

Nuthininyadick

Tell me if you will, where did I say that that was representative of an average line pilot's salary. I believe, (although I must admit to a couple of reds at the time in question), that I said it was a potential figure.

Maui

VH-JJW 11th Mar 2008 01:43

Average A330 Line Captain doing 10hrs per month 10.5 months a year with 6% retention and Perf bonus is $210k.

You could perhaps get another $10k with paxing and ground duties.

Maybe even squeeze another $5k for a few work days off.

Super (9% on total earnings) and allowances are additional to this.

A320 guys are able to consistently average 90+ stick hours per month, hence a similar earnings capacity.

Nuthinondaclock 11th Mar 2008 01:54

Maui, you did indeed say Ďpotential figureí (though even on your numbers itís still $20k less) but when you then put it in the context of the rest of your post you were comparing it to average working salaries. You canít compare the average salary of one group with the extreme high end of anotherís as a valid comparison. I donít like comparing professions but you could compare my (or your) salary to that of a first year GP in a bulk billing clinic or a high end Plastic Surgeon depending on which way you wanted to argue your point. I'll let you off on the red wine defence though. Works for me.

Lies, lies and statistics.

Nuf.

Nuthinondaclock 11th Mar 2008 01:57

Thanks JJW. Certainly salarywise for a LCC it sounds quite reasonable.

Regards,
Nuf.

maui 11th Mar 2008 02:48

Nutininyadick and Speedy.

Ho Hum. Gather round kiddies its time for our maths lesson.

base 165.5 k
overtime 123 hour pa @ 210.32 /hr = 44.7k
total 210.3k
level3 = 18% x 210.3= 37.8k
total 247.2 k
retention bonus 6% x 247.2 =14.8k
total 262k

then you have super (9%) and productivity bonus (0-x).

Now Nuf I note your comments about a checker being a bit restricted by sim work.
Firstly I am astounded that in this day and age that this still occurs. Most of the real world has gone to the specialist sim trainer/checker.

Secondly, whilst in the protected environment of the sheltered workshop that is Q mainline, it may be diffcult to achieve maximum hours, the rest of the world seems to be able to do it with ease. For instance my figures for the last 12 months 831:39 actual 226:31 deadhead total 1058 not including sim and ground schools. You need to get out more, there is a whole different world out there, and currently J* is looking pretty good in comparison.

Maui

HF3000 11th Mar 2008 03:16

226 hours deadhead! That's a lot of red wine...

maui 11th Mar 2008 03:27

Would be if we were allowed to imbibe.

M

EPIRB 11th Mar 2008 04:18

Maui, I'm in the sheltered workshop of Mainline and I got up to 894 hours for the 365 days. Fortunately I had leave coming up which helped me out. And I didn't pick up any additional flying on top of what I was rostered in order to achieve this either. It seems that most on the 744 are sitting between 800 and 900 hours for the 365 days.

Nuthinondaclock 11th Mar 2008 06:19

Maui,

For starters the Level 3 Check Captainís 18% loading is on base salary and the Retention Bonus is actually paid 3 out of the 5 years of the EBA, but averaged out as an annual payment. Itís still a moot point youíre arguing though. In the post in question you were relating this salary to the Australian average salary. Iíd be really surprised if there is a single level 3 Check Captain on the 330 in Jet* that flew 1000 hours (or close to it) in a 365 day period. In fact how many level 3 Check Captains do they have on the 330? Iím guessing it would be a handful of guys and they would actually spend quite a lot of time in their checking role in the sim. I dare say they wouldnít be paying them an 18% bonus if they had specialised sim trainer/checkers doing all their sims. Certainly instrument rating renewals are not carried out by Ďsim instructorsí under CASAís rules. Itís hardly a fair representation of a Jet* pilotís salary in the context you used it. Heck, donít listen to me, read JJWís post.

The hours in QF mainline are irrelevant to what weíre talking about here. As I said before,
ďI donít think that any line driver (In Jet*) is going to come close to that (1,000 hours p.a.), particularly with the frequency of long haul flights to leisure destinations. When a lot of destinations are frequented 2-4 times a week itís just not possible to get your annual total that high.Ē
The figures JJW has quoted show this to be correct. If there are others on the 330 achieving otherwise Iím happy to be corrected but JJWís figures are in line with what Iíve been told by half a dozen other blokes I know on the 330. The hours you fly in your operation are likewise irrelevant. As an Aussie in Hawaii Iím guessing youíre on one of the JAL contracts. That sort of operation is very different from the Jet* flying. Is your 226 hours deadheading really deadheading or part of commuting to your base? (If you are on this contract the 831 flight hours a year only averages out at 72 flight hours a month with the 2 weeks a year leave. Again, this shows how an unfair comparison can be made.)

As Iíve said before Iím not saying any of this to argue against Jet* and the salary but I dislike it when the extreme end of a salary is bandied around like weíre all earning it. Itís dishonest and ultimately self defeating.

Nuf.

Pass-A-Frozo 11th Mar 2008 07:36


I came up with closer to $210,000
Can't believe you aren't filing for welfare on that paltry wage ;)

maui 11th Mar 2008 09:19

Nuttinimadick

Settle Petal.

I can only go on what has been published here, and as there is no specification as to how the C&T loadings are applied, I must bow to your superior knowledge and insight. Scratch 8.3k from the calculation. Shucks we're down to our last 253k, however can one be expected to cope.

Retetion bonus according to what is written is PAID on the 1st 3rd and 5th anniversaries, however as the poster has quoted a full 6% in the annualised (like 1 year) figure, I foolishly considered that it meant 6% per annum. If you have further insight into how this is applied I am sure all who read here would appreciate the benefit of your greater resource.

Instrument rating renwals can indeed be carried out by sim instructor/checkers under CASA rules. I refer you to the latest Crash Comic page 50.
(Anyway can you explain what is all this level 1,2,3 crap, is it a Q thing or is it something new in the CAR 217 stucture. I and, I am sure, a lot of us OS have no knowledge of it. It was much simpler when we had just checkers and just trainers.)


Itís hardly a fair representation of a Jet* pilotís salary in the context you used it.

When did I ever claim to be quoting a figure representing an average pilot's salary.

As for the 1000 hours. You can bet your bottom dollar that J* will be doing everything they can to extract every last minute of that 1000 hours. The purpose of quoting my own figures was purely to demonstrate that it is possible. One of the principal reasons for the J* model is to eliminate restrictive practices that prevent the complete extraction of resources.

The dishonesty you accuse me of, dear fellow, is in your irrational incomprehension.

Now it's late. Go have a red, kick the cat, and go to bed.

Maui

Tidbinbilla 11th Mar 2008 09:37


Now it's late. Go have a red, kick the cat, and go to bed.
Timely advice as this thread has run its course.


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