Qantas vertical promotion
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Mmmm. Can't say that I necessarily agree with you re 767 skills Keg. The reason being that it currently takes naff-all time to get a promotion to F/O on the 767 regardless of who you are. There's only so much flying & decision-making experience you can rack up in 12 months!
That aside, what about the Classic? How come an S/O on the Classic who has spent the last two years rotating (since he finished his initial course), and who may or may not have any significant previous experience, and who has spent half his flying time looking sideways, can be vertically promoted without so much as a raised eyebrow, but the -400 S/O who may have 2000 hours heavy jet command (yes there are some!), or who is ex AN/Swissair/Cathay with 4000 hours in the right seat of an Airbus or what-have-you (yes there are some of them too), cannot under any circumstances, go straight to the right seat of a Jumbo which has the numbers -400 after its type designation? I wonder if all the other airlines who recruit directly to F/O on large capacity jets regardless of when you last flew, are going to take a leaf out of QF's book and cease such tomfoolery forthwith? The 'one size fits all' approach, while needing less thought and making the drafting of the FSO easier, will disadvantage some unfairly.
Phew. Gotta take a breath, and my valium. Incidently, don't get me wrong - I actually have no interest whatsoever in staying in the jump seat of a 400 for 8 years. I think I'd rather spend time in a Turkish prison. But my promotional aspirations are about to receive a big setback with the inevitable exodus of senior S/Os jumping in front of me on my desired type!
ps, I won't be posting this on qrewroom. The last thing I want is to be like Keg and have people in QCC greet me by my pseudonym!
That aside, what about the Classic? How come an S/O on the Classic who has spent the last two years rotating (since he finished his initial course), and who may or may not have any significant previous experience, and who has spent half his flying time looking sideways, can be vertically promoted without so much as a raised eyebrow, but the -400 S/O who may have 2000 hours heavy jet command (yes there are some!), or who is ex AN/Swissair/Cathay with 4000 hours in the right seat of an Airbus or what-have-you (yes there are some of them too), cannot under any circumstances, go straight to the right seat of a Jumbo which has the numbers -400 after its type designation? I wonder if all the other airlines who recruit directly to F/O on large capacity jets regardless of when you last flew, are going to take a leaf out of QF's book and cease such tomfoolery forthwith? The 'one size fits all' approach, while needing less thought and making the drafting of the FSO easier, will disadvantage some unfairly.
Phew. Gotta take a breath, and my valium. Incidently, don't get me wrong - I actually have no interest whatsoever in staying in the jump seat of a 400 for 8 years. I think I'd rather spend time in a Turkish prison. But my promotional aspirations are about to receive a big setback with the inevitable exodus of senior S/Os jumping in front of me on my desired type!
ps, I won't be posting this on qrewroom. The last thing I want is to be like Keg and have people in QCC greet me by my pseudonym!
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How's It Hangin'. It's interesting to hear that the Evil Empire comes to the lowly subsidiaries for assistance when the chips are down......
Why can't they send 'em off to QanDom? They do almost as many takeoffs and landings per shift as we do
And in Fast Jets no less!
I wonder if the "cadets and inexperienced S/O's" will have to go through the full Eastern recruitment process, just as Eastern pilots have to do if they wish to go to the Dark Side?
Hopefully, M.D. will maintain the standard and require that they do, regardless of the candidate's origin. We can't have double standards now, can we?
Unless, of course, it's a one-for-one straight transfer...
Somehow I doubt it
Why can't they send 'em off to QanDom? They do almost as many takeoffs and landings per shift as we do
And in Fast Jets no less! I wonder if the "cadets and inexperienced S/O's" will have to go through the full Eastern recruitment process, just as Eastern pilots have to do if they wish to go to the Dark Side?
Hopefully, M.D. will maintain the standard and require that they do, regardless of the candidate's origin. We can't have double standards now, can we?
Unless, of course, it's a one-for-one straight transfer...
Somehow I doubt it
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HJ, there probably will not be any progression, but maybe to train their 747 pilots we will have to receive 747 training captain remuneration!
PS. nothing like a good rumour to get the tongues wagging and minds ticking over.
PS. nothing like a good rumour to get the tongues wagging and minds ticking over.
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Three Bars
Situation over here is "business as usual", in fact most of us are working our a%se off. Every time there is a spot of trouble in this part of the sand, Emirates nearly double in size. All other airlines pull out and EK go in for the "kill". Life is not affected at all by what is or has gone on. Bit like living in BNE and there is trouble and strife down in MEL which is two hours away. Have no doubt about it though, when Dadsbag opens up, EK will be the first airline to mosey on in. Still just massive expansion here with 1 aircraft arriving every month for the next 2 years. Maybe they know something that we dont !!!!!!!! Then again, that's pretty normal in any airline eh.
Lizard
Situation over here is "business as usual", in fact most of us are working our a%se off. Every time there is a spot of trouble in this part of the sand, Emirates nearly double in size. All other airlines pull out and EK go in for the "kill". Life is not affected at all by what is or has gone on. Bit like living in BNE and there is trouble and strife down in MEL which is two hours away. Have no doubt about it though, when Dadsbag opens up, EK will be the first airline to mosey on in. Still just massive expansion here with 1 aircraft arriving every month for the next 2 years. Maybe they know something that we dont !!!!!!!! Then again, that's pretty normal in any airline eh.
Lizard
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Rather than send "low time", "inexperienced crew" to Eastern to learn how to fly, why not just employ people with the experience in the first place - there are plenty of them out there.
And I feel the "send them to Eastern" - is the "smaller aircraft therefore must be easier to fly" senario - just not true.
And I feel the "send them to Eastern" - is the "smaller aircraft therefore must be easier to fly" senario - just not true.
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Hot_section it has been pretty much the norm overseas that pilots gain experience in the regionals flying turbo props before moving on to the main airlines. I actually took the same route myself.
There would be a few industrial hurdles to overcome, but I don't see why it could not work in QF/Eastern.
There would be a few industrial hurdles to overcome, but I don't see why it could not work in QF/Eastern.
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Pup,
I can see that, but I would assume o/s that you enter the regional as an F/O, advance to Captain, then up the ladder to jets as an F/O.
I see the Eastern/QF as low exp S/O's going to Eastern as an F/O get some experience and then off to mainline, where do the captains in Eastern come from, and the existing cCaptains turn into baby sitters.
I can see that, but I would assume o/s that you enter the regional as an F/O, advance to Captain, then up the ladder to jets as an F/O.
I see the Eastern/QF as low exp S/O's going to Eastern as an F/O get some experience and then off to mainline, where do the captains in Eastern come from, and the existing cCaptains turn into baby sitters.
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The company wants more experience and is prepared to pay for it. Fair enough.
This career path will provide lots of experience. A few minor issues to solve but the co is in a spending mood.
Puit Dash 8 F/O. Build up the stick and rudder skills
S/O Anything. Learn how to play with boxes. See new places.
F/0 717. Lots of ups and downs on jets
F/O 737. More ups and downs on jets
F/O 767. Yet even more ups and downs and more International experience
F/O 744/A330. Handling the big big jets.
Capt Dash 8. A bit of hard yakka for your first command
Capt 717. First jet command and lots and lots of ups and downs
Capt 737. Second jet command and even more ups and downs
Capt 767. Thinking about the super and the big boat now
Capt 744/A380. The easy life at last.
Gold watch
This career path will provide lots of experience. A few minor issues to solve but the co is in a spending mood.
Puit Dash 8 F/O. Build up the stick and rudder skills
S/O Anything. Learn how to play with boxes. See new places.
F/0 717. Lots of ups and downs on jets
F/O 737. More ups and downs on jets
F/O 767. Yet even more ups and downs and more International experience
F/O 744/A330. Handling the big big jets.
Capt Dash 8. A bit of hard yakka for your first command
Capt 717. First jet command and lots and lots of ups and downs
Capt 737. Second jet command and even more ups and downs
Capt 767. Thinking about the super and the big boat now
Capt 744/A380. The easy life at last.
Gold watch
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DutchRoll, I was waiting for the classic to come up in this forum.
I disagree with some points you make regarding experience gained on the classic.
Rotating for 2yrs may be true but untill the current world events blanklines flown would be over 165 most times so basically perm. pattern flying.
The comment “(sitting) half his flying time looking sideways" "won’t get by with so much as a raised eyebrow” from me. It is an incorrect breakdown, the FE's break is the same as the pilots, as well as ignorant to think this is not good experience for promotion.
Time at the panel is spent monitoring the aircrafts many system limits, fuel distribution, configuration, thrust settings, filling Eng data logs etc. (eg AC dispatched no auto throttle, lots of hands on) This is just another form off scanning your instruments, (front and sideways), means more time on flt deck and gives a greater understanding of how to deal with non-normal/EMRG situations.
Have not been on a trip yet where at least one sector is not given to me, then support the way home is also not uncommon. 99% of the Capt's are great to fly with giving lots of trainig input. I believe this can be a bit different on the -400.
The classic flying is great for your IF skills. Your Sit. Awareness is tested with only basic RMI, DME etc to keep you in the loop.
The route exposure has included- Japan (Osaka NGO NRT FUK) TPE, HK, BLI, Jakarta, Christchurch, Nandi, Pom, HNL, Bombay.
Final point is the amount of Sim time. Just to get endorsed both, SO FE, I think the total amount of 4 hr sims totalled 32. Then the 2 extra FE cyclic sims on top of the SO during the year. Add to that numerous support sims that include CPT conversion, assessment sims etc, through out a year.
This all adds up to seeing the classic operation, normal and non-normal, in great depth.
Not trying to have pissing comp about types, work load etc, and I’m not suggesting classic SO deserves any different rules to a –400, just think a little balance was need on the classic operation.
Regards
I disagree with some points you make regarding experience gained on the classic.
Rotating for 2yrs may be true but untill the current world events blanklines flown would be over 165 most times so basically perm. pattern flying.
The comment “(sitting) half his flying time looking sideways" "won’t get by with so much as a raised eyebrow” from me. It is an incorrect breakdown, the FE's break is the same as the pilots, as well as ignorant to think this is not good experience for promotion.
Time at the panel is spent monitoring the aircrafts many system limits, fuel distribution, configuration, thrust settings, filling Eng data logs etc. (eg AC dispatched no auto throttle, lots of hands on) This is just another form off scanning your instruments, (front and sideways), means more time on flt deck and gives a greater understanding of how to deal with non-normal/EMRG situations.
Have not been on a trip yet where at least one sector is not given to me, then support the way home is also not uncommon. 99% of the Capt's are great to fly with giving lots of trainig input. I believe this can be a bit different on the -400.
The classic flying is great for your IF skills. Your Sit. Awareness is tested with only basic RMI, DME etc to keep you in the loop.
The route exposure has included- Japan (Osaka NGO NRT FUK) TPE, HK, BLI, Jakarta, Christchurch, Nandi, Pom, HNL, Bombay.
Final point is the amount of Sim time. Just to get endorsed both, SO FE, I think the total amount of 4 hr sims totalled 32. Then the 2 extra FE cyclic sims on top of the SO during the year. Add to that numerous support sims that include CPT conversion, assessment sims etc, through out a year.
This all adds up to seeing the classic operation, normal and non-normal, in great depth.
Not trying to have pissing comp about types, work load etc, and I’m not suggesting classic SO deserves any different rules to a –400, just think a little balance was need on the classic operation.
Regards
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Bonvol,
Guys are complaining now about the drop in pay and lifestyle coming from an S/O on the 400 to promotion on another fleet, I can hear the uproar now from 400 F/O's going to the Dash for a command.
How do you propose the pay scales ?
Guys are complaining now about the drop in pay and lifestyle coming from an S/O on the 400 to promotion on another fleet, I can hear the uproar now from 400 F/O's going to the Dash for a command.
How do you propose the pay scales ?
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It's all a bit tongue in cheek but if one looks at the domestic models of yesteryear similar movement was the norm.
A typical progression was
F27 F/O
F28/737 F/O
B767/A300 F/O
F27 Capt
F28/737/727 Capt
767/A300 Capt
The "product" at the end had pretty much done it all. If this is what the company wants then go the whole hog rather than divisively changing the seniority rules in mid stream.
In the end though I'd say the goose is cooked and one will just have to bend over and accept it, as we always do. The fact that the company didn't even consult AIPA (as far as I know) at all tells you they do not see this as an industrial issue.
A typical progression was
F27 F/O
F28/737 F/O
B767/A300 F/O
F27 Capt
F28/737/727 Capt
767/A300 Capt
The "product" at the end had pretty much done it all. If this is what the company wants then go the whole hog rather than divisively changing the seniority rules in mid stream.
In the end though I'd say the goose is cooked and one will just have to bend over and accept it, as we always do. The fact that the company didn't even consult AIPA (as far as I know) at all tells you they do not see this as an industrial issue.
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Does anyone have a timescale on Cadet's going to Easterns??
Apparently QF has ceased all recruitment to August/ September, so if the cadets go to Eastern's before then, what happens??
Apparently QF has ceased all recruitment to August/ September, so if the cadets go to Eastern's before then, what happens??
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Cadets going to Eastern will be the best thing that ever happened to them. Nothing like plenty of windy,rainy, night angry approaches in a Dash to build up experience.
May cause a bit of ill feeling in the Eastern troops though since there is no guaranteed career path to mainline for them and they have to bring these guys and gals up to speed.
May cause a bit of ill feeling in the Eastern troops though since there is no guaranteed career path to mainline for them and they have to bring these guys and gals up to speed.
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FFRATS, no offence to the Classic (or the 767) intended. The point I was trying to illustrate includes the fact that there are people who DO have the capacity for vertical promotion on all types, and type-rating is not necessarily an indication of ability or experience.
I'll try not to buy into the argument about no. of sectors, etc. Most skippers on the -400 are not as bad as some would believe for giving away sectors/support, unless you happen to only fly with Captains doing SYD-LAX-SYD patterns and nothing else (in which case you are well on the way to brain atrophy regardless).
Nevertheless, the logic behind the FSO is fundamentally flawed. And while it won't affect me, I HATE illogical or inconsistent rules and procedures.
In fact, last night I was simultaneously thinking of the permutations of the vertical promotion issue while attempting to reconcile the topic of 'F/Os minima' when I started frothing at the mouth and bleeding from the ears. It was at that point I realised my brain circuitry had gone into complete meltdown. I now need to rest. Perhaps I'll go and stare at my goldfish tank.
I'll try not to buy into the argument about no. of sectors, etc. Most skippers on the -400 are not as bad as some would believe for giving away sectors/support, unless you happen to only fly with Captains doing SYD-LAX-SYD patterns and nothing else (in which case you are well on the way to brain atrophy regardless).
Nevertheless, the logic behind the FSO is fundamentally flawed. And while it won't affect me, I HATE illogical or inconsistent rules and procedures.
In fact, last night I was simultaneously thinking of the permutations of the vertical promotion issue while attempting to reconcile the topic of 'F/Os minima' when I started frothing at the mouth and bleeding from the ears. It was at that point I realised my brain circuitry had gone into complete meltdown. I now need to rest. Perhaps I'll go and stare at my goldfish tank.