Qantas vertical promotion
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: australia
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just been reading the latest posts both here and Qrewroom, Razor, and I must tell you you are not alone in your thought processes.
The curent last line on the other thread "you just don't get it"...? Well, don't worry mate. We know that you do get it, you just don't agree, and your right to disagree does not seem to have been accepted.
400 SO's have earned themselves the nickname of the "mafia" through their own doing. Games such as "not pressing a single button between Sydney and LA" do nothing to improve their cause. Of course, this does not mean they are ALL responsible, however if the shoe fits.....
Joe Punter does not care whether his pilot has made good lifestyle decisions, but he has a right to know that his crew are appropriately current, experienced, and qualified to get him to his destination. So, if a 400 SO is straight out of the street with 2000 hours on 152's, and 310's, and another 2000 as a 400 SO (there are plenty), then as long as my ars# points to the ground I will not consider him experienced enough to sit in the right hand seat of a 400.
The point is that there are very different experience levels throughout the fleet, and a "one size fits all" approach does not work. So how do you fix it - say that some can go vertical and some can't? I think not. The easiest solution for the company is to say "go and do some time elsewhere for a while - you'll get your chance".
And sorry Hot, this IS the place to say these things because someone always takes offence to what is said on Qrewroom and there is no other forum for a healthy anonymous debate. As far as airing that dirty laundry? Is there a stain that you wish to hide?
The curent last line on the other thread "you just don't get it"...? Well, don't worry mate. We know that you do get it, you just don't agree, and your right to disagree does not seem to have been accepted.
400 SO's have earned themselves the nickname of the "mafia" through their own doing. Games such as "not pressing a single button between Sydney and LA" do nothing to improve their cause. Of course, this does not mean they are ALL responsible, however if the shoe fits.....
Joe Punter does not care whether his pilot has made good lifestyle decisions, but he has a right to know that his crew are appropriately current, experienced, and qualified to get him to his destination. So, if a 400 SO is straight out of the street with 2000 hours on 152's, and 310's, and another 2000 as a 400 SO (there are plenty), then as long as my ars# points to the ground I will not consider him experienced enough to sit in the right hand seat of a 400.
The point is that there are very different experience levels throughout the fleet, and a "one size fits all" approach does not work. So how do you fix it - say that some can go vertical and some can't? I think not. The easiest solution for the company is to say "go and do some time elsewhere for a while - you'll get your chance".
And sorry Hot, this IS the place to say these things because someone always takes offence to what is said on Qrewroom and there is no other forum for a healthy anonymous debate. As far as airing that dirty laundry? Is there a stain that you wish to hide?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Sydney
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agreed, one size fits all is not likely to be satisfactory but the company already has assessment procedures in place to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Some blokes have a shiny piece of paper that says the assessment commitee has met and "you are suitable for f/o training" and signed by the boss.
It does not say you are suitable for f/o training but only on type so and so. Having said that they will all probably be amended now
Some blokes have a shiny piece of paper that says the assessment commitee has met and "you are suitable for f/o training" and signed by the boss.
It does not say you are suitable for f/o training but only on type so and so. Having said that they will all probably be amended now
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am 744 S/O and I will start with balance's comment. I can assure there is no S/O mafia, I have never heard that term before. I can tell you that it is not fair to make comments such as second officers trying to fly all the way to LA without touching a button. I have never heard of such things occuring but anything is possible. What I have seen is Captains knowingly flying the aircraft in breach of SOPs and ignoring Second Officers (namely me) when challenged about it. I have also seen and personally had Captains throw tantrums in briefing and in the cockpit and throwing paperwork about the place and hitting (not hard of course) other crew. I only bring up these points to rebut the comments of balance's post. I can go on all day about really bad conduct by Captains that a S/O would never get away with.
Vertical promotion on the 744 is not about skill or ability, it is about choice and operating by the conditions we were employed under. If we are going to apply a silly rule to all S/Os because we aparently all have the same skill level, perhaps the company should not allow pilots become Captains on the 744 if they haven't first flown the Classic becasue they need to have flown a Jumbo before the 744. In fact I seem to remember being told that was a rule when the 400 was first introduced, and it was written off as a silly rule.
Of course it's a silly proposal, just as all S/Os shouldn't promote vertically to the 744 right seat. If we let the company enforce this proposal then what will be next? Unfortunatly the AIPA Committee has not received a response to their letter to the Chief Pilot asking if this is all just a rumor and I suspect even if they do get a response they will go along with it. Only time will tell. I dearly hope AIPA consider the opinion of the pilot body is affects (second officers) and doesn't let it though to win favor with the company as it would not affect them directly.
Vertical promotion on the 744 is not about skill or ability, it is about choice and operating by the conditions we were employed under. If we are going to apply a silly rule to all S/Os because we aparently all have the same skill level, perhaps the company should not allow pilots become Captains on the 744 if they haven't first flown the Classic becasue they need to have flown a Jumbo before the 744. In fact I seem to remember being told that was a rule when the 400 was first introduced, and it was written off as a silly rule.
Of course it's a silly proposal, just as all S/Os shouldn't promote vertically to the 744 right seat. If we let the company enforce this proposal then what will be next? Unfortunatly the AIPA Committee has not received a response to their letter to the Chief Pilot asking if this is all just a rumor and I suspect even if they do get a response they will go along with it. Only time will tell. I dearly hope AIPA consider the opinion of the pilot body is affects (second officers) and doesn't let it though to win favor with the company as it would not affect them directly.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: QLD
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Unfortunatly the AIPA Committee has not received a response to their letter to the Chief Pilot asking if this is all just a rumor and I suspect even if they do get a response they will go along with it. "
LIPEZE - As posted on Qrewroom and is fact (as I telephoned the union ), AIPA is against Vertical promotion and will support any pilot disadvantaged by it.
Instead of complaining about the union, ring them and attempt to find out the facts.
LIPEZE - As posted on Qrewroom and is fact (as I telephoned the union ), AIPA is against Vertical promotion and will support any pilot disadvantaged by it.
Instead of complaining about the union, ring them and attempt to find out the facts.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Sydney
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They have apparently written two letters with no reply according to AIPA.
Sure, write letters for confirmation but why not just pick up the phone and ask? Maybe they have but they seem to be treating it as a rumour at this stage.
AIPA have also asked individual pilots to write to the company and voice their opinion. Yeah, sure... stick your hand up for potential villification as a troublemaker.
Sure, write letters for confirmation but why not just pick up the phone and ask? Maybe they have but they seem to be treating it as a rumour at this stage.
AIPA have also asked individual pilots to write to the company and voice their opinion. Yeah, sure... stick your hand up for potential villification as a troublemaker.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: australia
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You guys just don't get it do you? (Sorry, I just had to use that one!!)
This issue is only partially about choice. Thinking that choice is the sole issue is a blinkered and narrow minded approach which will not win you friends. There are several peripheral poblems which need to be addressed way before your personal choice is considered.
Things (amongst others - certainly not exhaustive) that I believe the company is thinking:
(1) Experience vs recency vs currency. Do -400 SO's and FO's have enough for vertical promotion?
(2) Is this aircraft becoming a trough for the pigs to feed? Does that create a problem.
(3) Other fleets faired badly as a result of the LOSA audit, but how did the 400 perform? Why?
Lip-eze, I certainly sympathize with your point of view, and as many others have already said, I'm all for personal choice. But there is a limit to the value of choice. Maybe you cant see the forrest for the trees. It is not just about choice. That is far too symplistic. And no-one is justifying the behaviour of those Captains. I certainly agree with you, thats eally poor and they need to be stopped. Maybe they were vertically promoted???
And BTW, you really haven't hear the term "400 SO Mafia"? And you realy haven't heard of the games they play? Good lord son, where have you been?
I would suggest given the lack of response from the company WRT the AIPA letters, it pretty much confirms the company is going ahead with it.
This issue is only partially about choice. Thinking that choice is the sole issue is a blinkered and narrow minded approach which will not win you friends. There are several peripheral poblems which need to be addressed way before your personal choice is considered.
Things (amongst others - certainly not exhaustive) that I believe the company is thinking:
(1) Experience vs recency vs currency. Do -400 SO's and FO's have enough for vertical promotion?
(2) Is this aircraft becoming a trough for the pigs to feed? Does that create a problem.
(3) Other fleets faired badly as a result of the LOSA audit, but how did the 400 perform? Why?
Lip-eze, I certainly sympathize with your point of view, and as many others have already said, I'm all for personal choice. But there is a limit to the value of choice. Maybe you cant see the forrest for the trees. It is not just about choice. That is far too symplistic. And no-one is justifying the behaviour of those Captains. I certainly agree with you, thats eally poor and they need to be stopped. Maybe they were vertically promoted???
And BTW, you really haven't hear the term "400 SO Mafia"? And you realy haven't heard of the games they play? Good lord son, where have you been?
I would suggest given the lack of response from the company WRT the AIPA letters, it pretty much confirms the company is going ahead with it.
LIP EZE,
I take it you subsequently reported the Captain's who have knowingly flown in breach of the SOP's??
If you didnt then you are in breach of your responsibility.
I take it you subsequently reported the Captain's who have knowingly flown in breach of the SOP's??
If you didnt then you are in breach of your responsibility.
Balance,
Vertical promotion is a non-problem. Scanning the list I can see maybe 2 guys from FO 744 to CAPT 744 out of 180 odd total. As for SO 744 to FO 744 I can spot maybe 15 out of 180 total. Of these FOs all appear to be highly expeienced military / airline guys with a considerable amount of hard core flying experience. BTW balance experience/ability is the consideration for promotion, currency is a problem that is not solved by limiting vertical promotion, and as I indicated these guys have more than enough time up. As for the 744 guys being well paid, yes they are and so they should be. What is this SO 744 mafia crap. Of the 315, at last count, SOs on the 744 approx 200 have been in less than 2 years. Of the top 100, 50 have been in less than 5 years. All these people are equally spread between GA/cadet/military, and yet some would argue that this disparate group of people of various backgrounds, ages and experience levels all have the same aspiration to sit around wait for a slot. And play what 'Mafia' games, more than half these blokes don't even know each other. As for crossing the pond without pushing a button, an urban myth, never seen it or heard about it.
Vertical promotion is a non-problem. Scanning the list I can see maybe 2 guys from FO 744 to CAPT 744 out of 180 odd total. As for SO 744 to FO 744 I can spot maybe 15 out of 180 total. Of these FOs all appear to be highly expeienced military / airline guys with a considerable amount of hard core flying experience. BTW balance experience/ability is the consideration for promotion, currency is a problem that is not solved by limiting vertical promotion, and as I indicated these guys have more than enough time up. As for the 744 guys being well paid, yes they are and so they should be. What is this SO 744 mafia crap. Of the 315, at last count, SOs on the 744 approx 200 have been in less than 2 years. Of the top 100, 50 have been in less than 5 years. All these people are equally spread between GA/cadet/military, and yet some would argue that this disparate group of people of various backgrounds, ages and experience levels all have the same aspiration to sit around wait for a slot. And play what 'Mafia' games, more than half these blokes don't even know each other. As for crossing the pond without pushing a button, an urban myth, never seen it or heard about it.
Nunc est bibendum
Eqauliser, you aren't talking to the right (or should that be wrong?) blokes. I've been BRAGGED to about it. S/O took great joy in telling me how little he worked for same/more money as me, more time off, etc, etc.
As for the mafia/barons/etc, I remember a time when their were the Pacific Barons but a couple of years after I left the 744 people were referring to the 'Europe barons' because some of the junior blokes didn't have the seniority to get off the pacific routes due to the more senior bretheren being bored out of their wits going across the pacific and so not bidding for it.
Anyway, will be interesting to see where this one goes. Wonder if will cause a bunch of 744 F/Os to come out of the woodwork for life on the 767?
As for the mafia/barons/etc, I remember a time when their were the Pacific Barons but a couple of years after I left the 744 people were referring to the 'Europe barons' because some of the junior blokes didn't have the seniority to get off the pacific routes due to the more senior bretheren being bored out of their wits going across the pacific and so not bidding for it.
Anyway, will be interesting to see where this one goes. Wonder if will cause a bunch of 744 F/Os to come out of the woodwork for life on the 767?
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to throw another spanner in the works, and further to the theory that Dash 8 crew are the most experienced in the Qantas fleet, Qantas has asked Eastern to take on cadets and inexperienced SO's to give them some experience. This has come about from the audits others have mentioned. In exchange Eastern pilots will get progression on to jets as FO's.
Details to come.
Details to come.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Oz
Posts: 754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, it just goes to prove that there are 'rogue' elements in every rank (my apologies for stealing George dubbya's line). The vast majority of 400 S/Os however are not inherently lazy, despite the rank being let down by the attitudes of a few (just as the majority of 400 Captains I've flown with who are good blokes are let down by the attitudes of a few who failed to develop inter-personal communication skills as children).
Anyway, I'm the first to admit that I 'just dont get it'. I'm still trying to figure out why vertical promotion should necessarily be a bad thing. Just as with any type of promotion, I'm sure some individuals will rise to the occasion while others will struggle. So a blanket ban applying to one aircraft type doesn't seem to make much sense.
The other concept I'm struggling with is why experience should matter to the 400 so much more than it does to any other high capacity jet transport. Why is VP still available on the classic and the 767 (in particular S/O to F/O - don't tell me that 767 S/Os have any sort of recency)? Am I missing something?
Anyway, I'm the first to admit that I 'just dont get it'. I'm still trying to figure out why vertical promotion should necessarily be a bad thing. Just as with any type of promotion, I'm sure some individuals will rise to the occasion while others will struggle. So a blanket ban applying to one aircraft type doesn't seem to make much sense.
The other concept I'm struggling with is why experience should matter to the 400 so much more than it does to any other high capacity jet transport. Why is VP still available on the classic and the 767 (in particular S/O to F/O - don't tell me that 767 S/Os have any sort of recency)? Am I missing something?
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 811
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can see the reasons why all this stuff is being discussed in painful detail - but isn't anyone more than a little disappointed that we're all so seemingly afraid of what management will think of us if we express our constructive opinions without anonymity?
How's it Hanging - send over!
Lancer
How's it Hanging - send over!
Lancer
Nunc est bibendum
Interesting that we keep hearing about 'inexperienced crews' and LOSA and yet the 767 (which is supposedly the most 'inexperienced' aircraft) faired the best out of the audit!! Not sure how that applies to Eastern's taking on cadets and so on but you get my drift.
Dutchy, I'd bet serious money that a former cadet on the 767 would be at an all round higher standard of skill (stick and rudder as well as 'management') than a similar cadet who have gone to the 744. More sectors on the aeroplane, no other S/O to 'share' it with, the fact that they do the complete sector (fuel order, the lot) as opposed to just 'fly the climb and the descent son' and then hand over at top of climb as was the case (and I understand still is with vast majority of skippers and F/Os) on the 744.
I reckon the 'experience' issue on the 744 is that to become a F/O on the thing direct from S/O means that you've done little or no flying for the last 8 years with the prospect of about one landing a week (or less) for the rest of your time on the thing. THAT makes for 'interesting' times further down the track. To become a Captain on the thing from F/O suggests that you've spent a considerable amount of time on it as a F/O only doing one landing a week.
Still, I'm not convinced yet that the proposed solution is the right one. Lots of ways to skin this particular cat and it appears that the most industrially sensitive method has been chosen!
It doesn't affect me in the short term and probably won't affect me in the long term but I watch with interest on how it plays out. The implicatoins of it are VERY 'interesting'.
Dutchy, I'd bet serious money that a former cadet on the 767 would be at an all round higher standard of skill (stick and rudder as well as 'management') than a similar cadet who have gone to the 744. More sectors on the aeroplane, no other S/O to 'share' it with, the fact that they do the complete sector (fuel order, the lot) as opposed to just 'fly the climb and the descent son' and then hand over at top of climb as was the case (and I understand still is with vast majority of skippers and F/Os) on the 744.
I reckon the 'experience' issue on the 744 is that to become a F/O on the thing direct from S/O means that you've done little or no flying for the last 8 years with the prospect of about one landing a week (or less) for the rest of your time on the thing. THAT makes for 'interesting' times further down the track. To become a Captain on the thing from F/O suggests that you've spent a considerable amount of time on it as a F/O only doing one landing a week.
Still, I'm not convinced yet that the proposed solution is the right one. Lots of ways to skin this particular cat and it appears that the most industrially sensitive method has been chosen!
It doesn't affect me in the short term and probably won't affect me in the long term but I watch with interest on how it plays out. The implicatoins of it are VERY 'interesting'.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Here and there.
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If what H i H (sorry ) says is true, then I reckon that any new low time recruits and cadets going to Eastern would be great experience for them.
There would of course have to be a route opened up for Eastern pilots to come to mainline should they want it.
To me the company is being very positive, it's trying to get a better all round pilot and is willing to pay for it with all the extra type conversions etc.
) says is true, then I reckon that any new low time recruits and cadets going to Eastern would be great experience for them. There would of course have to be a route opened up for Eastern pilots to come to mainline should they want it.
To me the company is being very positive, it's trying to get a better all round pilot and is willing to pay for it with all the extra type conversions etc.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Usually Oz
Posts: 732
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gents,
Nevermind my personal preference and practice, there's a very good chance that S/O 'seat occupancy' may be about to be raised skyward.
AFAIK, this will be fleetwide, so the guys getting a good go on the B767 will be as badly affected as the sparse go [for everybody, I might add] on the B744. It remains to be seen if they then get the added sim which the Cathay guys get.
G'day
Nevermind my personal preference and practice, there's a very good chance that S/O 'seat occupancy' may be about to be raised skyward.
AFAIK, this will be fleetwide, so the guys getting a good go on the B767 will be as badly affected as the sparse go [for everybody, I might add] on the B744. It remains to be seen if they then get the added sim which the Cathay guys get.
G'day