Qantas vertical promotion
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Looking at the experience arguement, it is obvious that the Dash 8 regional drivers are the most experienced in the Qantas fleet. We do more sectors and approaches in a week than some longhaul pilots do in a year.
Sounds like it should be straight from DHC8 to left seat 744 to me!
Sounds like it should be straight from DHC8 to left seat 744 to me!
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I for one believe the major issue is the perceived pay drop when S/O s accept promotion on other types. I therefore propose that 744 S/O s pay be reduced in the next EBA by say min. 20 % and this money be transfered to the Captain's Payscale.
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Dare I say it but there is no one who feels for a 400 s/o in Qf, but a 400 s/o. Due to the large number of sitters on the 400 a lot of their airforce mates have not been employed. Thank your mates who joined and said yes mr qantas i want to be a captain, and then sat on their arses as s/o's on the 400.
jake the muss - what a load of b.s. 
Just because certain individuals have (quite within their rights, I might add) decided to bid for a 744 F/O slot, recruiting has dried up? Is this what you're trying to suggest...?
If so, I think you might be a bit off track. IF current 744 S/O's only have bids in for F/O slots on the 744, then management simply move down the seniority list to choose those who will progress onto F/O slots on other types. Hence, these guys are NOT slowing down the career progression of others. In fact, senior S/O's electing to stay on type simply extends F/O slots for the 767 & 737 further down the seniority list - which is fine by those current S/O's who wish to move onto F/O slots on different types.
Due to the perceptions of current 767 ops, many S/O's haven't bidded for the type. End result - bids went down as far as guys who had been with the company for less than 12 months. Those who want the 767 get it - those who want to stay on the 744 stay there.
I think you'll find that ex-RAAF guys are recruited on merit, and their performance in the testing stages - exactly the same as any other DE applicants. If you're suggesting that ex-RAAF guys deserve a slot anymore than anyone else - I guess you're entitled to your opinion at the end of the day...To suggest that ex-RAAF personnel who have bidded for a 744 F/O slot are holding up recruitment of anyone else, however, is complete crap.
Or maybe you're referring to just your mates, who can't get in, as I see a steady stream of my ex-RAAF instructors names & photos in the recruitment section of the newsletter every month...
Just because certain individuals have (quite within their rights, I might add) decided to bid for a 744 F/O slot, recruiting has dried up? Is this what you're trying to suggest...?
If so, I think you might be a bit off track. IF current 744 S/O's only have bids in for F/O slots on the 744, then management simply move down the seniority list to choose those who will progress onto F/O slots on other types. Hence, these guys are NOT slowing down the career progression of others. In fact, senior S/O's electing to stay on type simply extends F/O slots for the 767 & 737 further down the seniority list - which is fine by those current S/O's who wish to move onto F/O slots on different types.
Due to the perceptions of current 767 ops, many S/O's haven't bidded for the type. End result - bids went down as far as guys who had been with the company for less than 12 months. Those who want the 767 get it - those who want to stay on the 744 stay there.
I think you'll find that ex-RAAF guys are recruited on merit, and their performance in the testing stages - exactly the same as any other DE applicants. If you're suggesting that ex-RAAF guys deserve a slot anymore than anyone else - I guess you're entitled to your opinion at the end of the day...To suggest that ex-RAAF personnel who have bidded for a 744 F/O slot are holding up recruitment of anyone else, however, is complete crap.
Or maybe you're referring to just your mates, who can't get in, as I see a steady stream of my ex-RAAF instructors names & photos in the recruitment section of the newsletter every month...
Last edited by Johhny Utah; 4th Apr 2003 at 06:19.
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AIPA has written letters to the company and KI has confirmed it to individual pilots. There is heaps on Qrewroom on it. The fact its coming is not in doubt.
The time to influence it is before it becomes an FSO. After that it will be too late INMHO.
The time to influence it is before it becomes an FSO. After that it will be too late INMHO.
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Lads, please just stop all ya whinging and who's up who for the rent. All should just resign on mass (mmm, now that sounds familiar) and come over to Emirates like the few who already have. That way, you all get ya pay rise, pay no tax, have no union and therefore no representation and get severe shafting day in and day out by the DFO. I'd say with all that, the case is closed. No doubt, you all must agree to this right.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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LL,
Given the current world airline situation, I'm very happy to stay here in OZ and let the internal airline politics play themselves out. I assume you are in Emirates. How are your operations being affected by the current war? Very little publicity being given over here to the situation regarding schedules/load factors of the Middle East based airlines.
Given the current world airline situation, I'm very happy to stay here in OZ and let the internal airline politics play themselves out. I assume you are in Emirates. How are your operations being affected by the current war? Very little publicity being given over here to the situation regarding schedules/load factors of the Middle East based airlines.
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Johnny and Ra, I believe what Jake has stated to be true, although he perhaps didn't put it terribly eloquently.
Let me suggest that what he was trying to say is that the recruiters are taking proportionately fewer ex-military of late. Take a look at it and you may be surprised, I've certainly noticed it and had cause to wonder why. Has this been caused by the 400 SO's who "sit on their arse"? Perhaps so, but I believe that is what Jake was saying.
For what it's worth I've heard that KI despises them with a passion! And it's true that the only people whining about this are the 400 SO's.
Let me suggest that what he was trying to say is that the recruiters are taking proportionately fewer ex-military of late. Take a look at it and you may be surprised, I've certainly noticed it and had cause to wonder why. Has this been caused by the 400 SO's who "sit on their arse"? Perhaps so, but I believe that is what Jake was saying.
For what it's worth I've heard that KI despises them with a passion! And it's true that the only people whining about this are the 400 SO's.
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balance it would also be fair to say that the recruiters have also taken fewer GA pilots in proportion due to the fact that in the last year around 50 ex AN pilots have been employed.
As far as KI is concerned, I've flown with him and have shared the odd ale with him a few times. As a manager he would be one of the best the company has. In his present job he would only be trying to improve the operation of the crews without any favouritism and I don't believe that he is anti any particular group.
You state "And it's true that the only people whining about this are the 400 SO's". If it's true, don't you think it is a bit strange?
I for one have a great respect for the man.
As far as KI is concerned, I've flown with him and have shared the odd ale with him a few times. As a manager he would be one of the best the company has. In his present job he would only be trying to improve the operation of the crews without any favouritism and I don't believe that he is anti any particular group.
You state "And it's true that the only people whining about this are the 400 SO's". If it's true, don't you think it is a bit strange?
I for one have a great respect for the man.
Last edited by RaTa; 6th Apr 2003 at 07:50.
Time will tell!
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I'd be interested to see the figures RA, I certainly don't dispute that there are plenty of Ex An pilots recruited recently. But it does appear to me that there have been proportionately less ex military.
I fully agree with your comments re KI. But it does also appear that the company is attacking the problem the wrong way around. Instead of fixing the inequity of pay and lifestyle making promotion unattractive, they are forcing the issue with those who choose (understandably) not to take promotion.
My suggestion is this: fix the real issue, not the result. Institute fleet pay, lose the first day lottery.
I fully agree with your comments re KI. But it does also appear that the company is attacking the problem the wrong way around. Instead of fixing the inequity of pay and lifestyle making promotion unattractive, they are forcing the issue with those who choose (understandably) not to take promotion.
My suggestion is this: fix the real issue, not the result. Institute fleet pay, lose the first day lottery.
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Well, the plot thickens.
Today I hear it is likely to be proposed when the A380 arrives you will need a 1000 hrs A330 time to get on it. If that happens it will get some attention. Vicious rumour ?? Time will tell.
As for this not being an appropriate forum to discuss these issues I think it is appropriate. Qrewroom discussion is sanitised as everyone knows who you are. Here you can speak without fear of getting hauled in for tea and bikkies for unpalatable opinions, provided of course they dont figure out who you are
It would be nice to be confident AIPA would just handle it but it seems to be more a training ground for management than a union.
Today I hear it is likely to be proposed when the A380 arrives you will need a 1000 hrs A330 time to get on it. If that happens it will get some attention. Vicious rumour ?? Time will tell.
As for this not being an appropriate forum to discuss these issues I think it is appropriate. Qrewroom discussion is sanitised as everyone knows who you are. Here you can speak without fear of getting hauled in for tea and bikkies for unpalatable opinions, provided of course they dont figure out who you are
It would be nice to be confident AIPA would just handle it but it seems to be more a training ground for management than a union.
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I agree, bonvol.
It's interesting to hear people say that this is not the appropriate forum to discuss QF politics. Better to freely air your views here than to post on Qrewroom and have the QCC mafia take your first-born, just for having an opinion they don't like. I know several people who've had rather unpleasant phone calls and 'tea & bikky' meetings after posting 'controversial' (at least in the eyes of some of our more senior brethren) opinions on Qrewroom.
There are less military recruits, but I suspect the AN recruits are the main cause. GA seems to have been suffering also due to the same problem (no disrespect to AN guys trying to get in). When it all boils down to it, the military are not the main source of recruits for QF (they don't have enough recruits to give!), although they were having a very good run up until recently.
Back to the topic: for the record there are plenty of GA and cadet -400 S/Os who've been around a while, and also some -400 F/Os who are not happy with the proposal. I only hope the management looks at this in the broader context of pay & rostering disparities across A/C types, althought the 'heel dragging' on certain related issues doesn't exactly inspire confidence.
It's interesting to hear people say that this is not the appropriate forum to discuss QF politics. Better to freely air your views here than to post on Qrewroom and have the QCC mafia take your first-born, just for having an opinion they don't like. I know several people who've had rather unpleasant phone calls and 'tea & bikky' meetings after posting 'controversial' (at least in the eyes of some of our more senior brethren) opinions on Qrewroom.
There are less military recruits, but I suspect the AN recruits are the main cause. GA seems to have been suffering also due to the same problem (no disrespect to AN guys trying to get in). When it all boils down to it, the military are not the main source of recruits for QF (they don't have enough recruits to give!), although they were having a very good run up until recently.
Back to the topic: for the record there are plenty of GA and cadet -400 S/Os who've been around a while, and also some -400 F/Os who are not happy with the proposal. I only hope the management looks at this in the broader context of pay & rostering disparities across A/C types, althought the 'heel dragging' on certain related issues doesn't exactly inspire confidence.
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Dutch Roll,
Couldn't agree more with your first statement. There is a lot more diversity of discussion on this forum than Qrewroom on this topic.
I have had a go on that forum on this topic and have been quite surprised with the responces considering the amount of discussion that I have heard on this topic around the various watering holes. There is a large number that support the concept of requiring some flying on a type other than the 744 during your career. Purely for the number of sectors flown and skill consolidation.
There must be a lot that would like to have a say on Qrewroom but don't for whatever reason that not being anonymous allows.
Couldn't agree more with your first statement. There is a lot more diversity of discussion on this forum than Qrewroom on this topic.
I have had a go on that forum on this topic and have been quite surprised with the responces considering the amount of discussion that I have heard on this topic around the various watering holes. There is a large number that support the concept of requiring some flying on a type other than the 744 during your career. Purely for the number of sectors flown and skill consolidation.
There must be a lot that would like to have a say on Qrewroom but don't for whatever reason that not being anonymous allows.