Engineers slam Virgin on safety
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Kanga 767 we should not be looking for either a incident or accident free industry. Both are totally unachievable. Acknowledging that the human is the weakest link in the safety chain, and devising ways to strengthen it, ie two humans cross checking, will improve safety and reduce incidents.
I as a pilot am totally competant in doing daily inspections as well as preflight, and indeed do now. In the past i've found many defects that would have resulted in the least, turnbacks. In my role i am also required to know about everything in the aircraft i fly. But that also means that there is no way i would get on a aircraft after I had done the engine change.
Just because we can doesn't mean we should.
When management realizes that incidents will happen, and that having another pair of eyes searching will undoubtedly result in less incidents, safety will improve.
After all thats why i thought we had two of everything.
Two pilots
Two engines
Women have two breasts.
Men have two testicles.
It increases the chance of success.
I as a pilot am totally competant in doing daily inspections as well as preflight, and indeed do now. In the past i've found many defects that would have resulted in the least, turnbacks. In my role i am also required to know about everything in the aircraft i fly. But that also means that there is no way i would get on a aircraft after I had done the engine change.
Just because we can doesn't mean we should.
When management realizes that incidents will happen, and that having another pair of eyes searching will undoubtedly result in less incidents, safety will improve.
After all thats why i thought we had two of everything.
Two pilots
Two engines
Women have two breasts.
Men have two testicles.
It increases the chance of success.
Spanner Head
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This all reminds me of Dick Smith, and his "affordable safety". 
Yes, we could probably operate this new way without losing an Aircraft, Dick would no doubt be able to quote the odds, but it would be safer the way it was.
It is VERY commendable that you know about everything in your Aircraft, I have never met another Pilot, OR Engineer, that would claim that.
Whatever happened to the captains of old?
I remember like it was yesterday, but it was about 15 years ago, preflighting a B737 one day and checking an oil leak I found on one of the engines. The F/O doing the walkround came up to me and started asking all sorts of silly questions while I was trying to work. The Captain came over and upon hearing the F/O, asked me was I Licenced on the Aircraft. When I told him yes, on the engines and airframes, he asked me how long the courses were, so I told him (from memory) something like 8-9 weeks. He then told the F/O to f**k off up to the cockpit and stay there. Then HE apologised to me, and said please excuse him, he watched a 10 minute video on the engine and thinks he knows everything.
Whatever happened to those Captains?
Yes, we could probably operate this new way without losing an Aircraft, Dick would no doubt be able to quote the odds, but it would be safer the way it was.
It is VERY commendable that you know about everything in your Aircraft, I have never met another Pilot, OR Engineer, that would claim that.
Whatever happened to the captains of old?
I remember like it was yesterday, but it was about 15 years ago, preflighting a B737 one day and checking an oil leak I found on one of the engines. The F/O doing the walkround came up to me and started asking all sorts of silly questions while I was trying to work. The Captain came over and upon hearing the F/O, asked me was I Licenced on the Aircraft. When I told him yes, on the engines and airframes, he asked me how long the courses were, so I told him (from memory) something like 8-9 weeks. He then told the F/O to f**k off up to the cockpit and stay there. Then HE apologised to me, and said please excuse him, he watched a 10 minute video on the engine and thinks he knows everything.
Whatever happened to those Captains?
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Whatever happened to those Captains of old?
Fortunately, most of those crusty dickheads are gone 
Except for one airline....
They might have seemed to be silly questions, but perhaps the FO was trying to gain some knowledge from you? Don't take it personally. He might have actually valued your experience on type.
In the company I work for, we don't ask engineers if they're type rated. Of course they are, or they wouldn't work for us!
Check your ego at the gate, please folks......
Except for one airline....They might have seemed to be silly questions, but perhaps the FO was trying to gain some knowledge from you? Don't take it personally. He might have actually valued your experience on type.
In the company I work for, we don't ask engineers if they're type rated. Of course they are, or they wouldn't work for us!
Check your ego at the gate, please folks......
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Ahhhh... grease monkey... now I get it. Sorry for being slow, AN LAME.
When you said engineer I naturally thought you meant someone who drives a train or builds bridges.
And remember... "you can teach a monkey to fix a bike..."
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what is the sound of one ball slapping
When you said engineer I naturally thought you meant someone who drives a train or builds bridges.
And remember... "you can teach a monkey to fix a bike..."
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what is the sound of one ball slapping
Last edited by one ball; 2nd Mar 2003 at 06:18.
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In the perfect aviation world pilots are employed to fly aircraft, LAME's are employed to carry out scheduled inspections and to rectify defects, these duties are commonly known as AIRCRAFT MAINTENANCE.
We now see pilots doing preflights and in some instances allowed to carry out the maintenance requirements of some MEL's. Pilots are not required, at least under the CASA system to make a tech log entry for any of these items, the reason is, it becomes a maintenance function and would have to signed off by a LAME.
What I find very strange is that an aircraft can fly all day and at the end of the day a number of defects may appear as entries in the tech log.
But I suppose thats why we have QARs and ACARs parameter downlinks.BIG BROTHER is watching.
We now see pilots doing preflights and in some instances allowed to carry out the maintenance requirements of some MEL's. Pilots are not required, at least under the CASA system to make a tech log entry for any of these items, the reason is, it becomes a maintenance function and would have to signed off by a LAME.
What I find very strange is that an aircraft can fly all day and at the end of the day a number of defects may appear as entries in the tech log.
But I suppose thats why we have QARs and ACARs parameter downlinks.BIG BROTHER is watching.
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Gentlemen it seems that we are all chasing our tails and loosing sight of the objective, haveing been on both sides, up the front end piloting, albeit on light aircraft, and (still) wielding the spanners (these days on jets) we need to have a balance of both PROFESSIONS. I know the pressuers of flight planning and preparing to launch into the air, with that in mind I do not feel that the Captain or F/O need the added task of sole responsability of the Daily and/or turn around, the occasional inspection at an away base that does not have a LAME can be tolerated, but LAME inspections should be kept at main bases, with the pilots doing there own walk around. As has been said before two sets of eyes are better that one. We in Australia have an impecable record of saftey and we should keep it that way, it seems to be ok to stray away from this by down grading, but can you imagain the out cry when some thing goes wrong !!!!!! lets keep the airways safe. I appreciate the air crews that I work with and they appreciate us and that is a great working atmosphere. And just to add even new aircarft have problems and have break downs.
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Spot on LAYME
In the perfect aviation world pilots are employed to fly aircraft, LAME's are employed to carry out scheduled inspections and to rectify defects, these duties are commonly known as AIRCRAFT MAINTENANCE.
End of story.
Yandros,
While doing a walkaround on a 737, the engineer doing his walk around spotted that 2 of the N1 blades had overlapped and locked together. As the engine was windmilling quite quickly, I had to ask how the hell he could tell that, and I was shown by the engineer that where the blades were stuck together there was a very small gap and you could see it "flash" as they rotated past. Until then I would never have picked that up, how many other drivers of any rank would pick that up?
Not many. After all, in the transit inspection, where does it say to inspect the fanblades for any that are locked together. Probably in the same place where it says "Inspect every rivet for any that are loosening", etc etc etc. The transit inspection is/was a general visual inspection A shame a lot of engineers try to perform damn near a C-check everytime they come within 15 feet of the aircraft!
Airsupport,
Be careful on your use of emoticons, Your style is getting easier and easier to pick up!
heheheAlso isn't a LAME supposed to supervise the AME's under him not just assume the responsibility.? And don't forget an AME can basically be anyone who walks off the street and works on aircraft.
Oh gee I just watched another Dash startup and taxy out. What? No LAME doing a pre-flight? Nor was there a LAME on the headset! Aye Carumba! Whats the world coming to? Ah thats right its obviously not a real aircraft because its smaller than a 737. Fellas the precedent is already set. The argument will no doubt be lost.
Cheers
GTG!
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Air Support. You ask where are the captains of old? Well I'll tell you. There are no real captains anymore. Their new title is Pilot Flying (PF) and Pilot Not Flying (PNF). Two anonymous faceless figures of theoretically equal experience and therefore skills. Only one gets paid more.
The "captain" does not make command decisions anymore. He seeks advice, asks opinions, sniffs the air, and meekly asks the first officer what he thinks. And nowadays virtually abrogates most of the responsibility to his PF unless that is the captain then he duck shoves it to the PNF. It's called CRM and teamwork and the captain is the team-leader - or is that the PF?
The "captain" does not make command decisions anymore. He seeks advice, asks opinions, sniffs the air, and meekly asks the first officer what he thinks. And nowadays virtually abrogates most of the responsibility to his PF unless that is the captain then he duck shoves it to the PNF. It's called CRM and teamwork and the captain is the team-leader - or is that the PF?
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The "captain" does not make command decisions anymore. He seeks advice, asks opinions, sniffs the air, and meekly asks the first officer what he thinks.
Whilst I share your view on how things have seemed for quite a while, Menen, you'll be pleased to know that the current generation of CRM philosophy is swinging markedly back to where you and I would like it. The touchy-feely don't-make-anyone-cry atmosphere is being replaced with one where everyone remembers who's in command. How long it'll take to make it to wherever you work, I don't know.
It might have something to do with less of a need to hammer home the premises of basic CRM (eg. not operating as a 1-man band) as the older generation retires? Similar changes just might be creeping in as the older LAME generation retires, too, you never know. Maybe CRM should be expanded, once again, to include the bloke with the spannner. Apologies if that's already been mentioned.
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Pardon the short digression from the original topic...
one ball it seems that the premise of CRM is totally lost on you. CRM is not about being touchy-feely or not hurting anyone's feelings. CRM is about utilising every crew members skills and abilities in order to reduce the human factors that in turn may contribute to accidents/incidents.
A cockpit is not two people operating as individuals. It is two people operating as a co-operative cohesive group in order to complete certain tasks effectively. Your statement of "one where everyone remembers who's in command" is an example of antiquated, militarian and outdated thinking.
Anyway my 2 cents.. I've been enjoying this very interesting and lively debate, and hope it will continue in a very gentleman-like manner.
SG
one ball it seems that the premise of CRM is totally lost on you. CRM is not about being touchy-feely or not hurting anyone's feelings. CRM is about utilising every crew members skills and abilities in order to reduce the human factors that in turn may contribute to accidents/incidents.
A cockpit is not two people operating as individuals. It is two people operating as a co-operative cohesive group in order to complete certain tasks effectively. Your statement of "one where everyone remembers who's in command" is an example of antiquated, militarian and outdated thinking.
Anyway my 2 cents.. I've been enjoying this very interesting and lively debate, and hope it will continue in a very gentleman-like manner.
SG
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AN LAME...
Clap clap clap.
Well done AN LAME, however if you read it again, I was referring to one of Airsupport's earlier posts. You do read every post don't you? Or do you just skim for the juicy ones? I am so happy that you actually supervise your AME's. I know a lot of guys don't. Including at the old AN.
Dragging my feet? Becoming a habit? How so? Because I have other things to do than post message upon message upon message on PPrune?
I have seen nothing really new here since we discussed this topic many many months ago. So I have been content (no, not content, amazed is probably a better word) to occasionally check in and hear the old Pilot V LAME argument and who's better than who blah blah blah.
I have already given my 2 cents worth.
Enjoy your 'C'-checks ...sorry, transit inspections, while they last.
Cheers, and have a great day!
GTG!
Edited for speling eror!
You're dragging your feet GTG - becoming a habit. Oh and by the way, if I supervise I also take responsibility. Read the Reg.
Well done AN LAME, however if you read it again, I was referring to one of Airsupport's earlier posts. You do read every post don't you? Or do you just skim for the juicy ones? I am so happy that you actually supervise your AME's. I know a lot of guys don't. Including at the old AN.
Dragging my feet? Becoming a habit? How so? Because I have other things to do than post message upon message upon message on PPrune?
I have seen nothing really new here since we discussed this topic many many months ago. So I have been content (no, not content, amazed is probably a better word) to occasionally check in and hear the old Pilot V LAME argument and who's better than who blah blah blah.
I have already given my 2 cents worth.
Enjoy your 'C'-checks ...sorry, transit inspections, while they last.
Cheers, and have a great day!
GTG!
Edited for speling eror!
Last edited by GoodToGo!; 2nd Mar 2003 at 22:28.
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GTG,
No worries mate, I don't mind.
In among all this, nobody has yet answered my earlier enquiry, about whether the Pilots that are being forced to do these inspections on their own, are being given any extra salary or benefits?
Just curious that's all.
I would be very interested to know, just how many pieces of gold is the price nowadays.
No worries mate, I don't mind.
In among all this, nobody has yet answered my earlier enquiry, about whether the Pilots that are being forced to do these inspections on their own, are being given any extra salary or benefits?
Just curious that's all.
I would be very interested to know, just how many pieces of gold is the price nowadays.
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Syd-Girl. It seems the premise of my post is lost on you. Try to relax. Go sit the latest CRM modules and maybe you'll see what I'm talking about. That you don't like the gist of it changes nothing. I'm just telling you what the "gurus" are saying.
Thanks for your opinion, though.
End of digression.
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Thanks for your opinion, though.
End of digression.
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GTG,
I don't know who you work for nor am I interested but the Boeing
MPD still calls up the preflight or transit or whatever you like to call it as a maintenance function.
The lawyers would have a field day with this one and whilst I have your attention, if you fly a Boeing type, check the preamble to the MMEL and tell me if pilots can depart without a LAME signing Off the defect.
Keep the blue side up and watch your six.
I don't know who you work for nor am I interested but the Boeing
MPD still calls up the preflight or transit or whatever you like to call it as a maintenance function.
The lawyers would have a field day with this one and whilst I have your attention, if you fly a Boeing type, check the preamble to the MMEL and tell me if pilots can depart without a LAME signing Off the defect.
Keep the blue side up and watch your six.
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I'm with stupid; Yep I know the one your on about, ie lifting an engine on wing using a forklift. Well doesn't that show that any shortcut in maintenace is not worth the risk, and I think that directly relates to what is being discussed here.
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Layme,
Hmmm, according to the Boeing MPD I am reading it says, and I quote:
So there is some more juicy stuff for you guys to discuss. Eg. What 'circumstances'?
Your comment re the MMEL? Well the MMEL states
Doesn't say LAME to sign off there......
Our company MEL?
Hmmm There isn't anything similar in the MMEL regarding the last quote.......
More fuel.
Cheers!
GTG!
Hmmm, according to the Boeing MPD I am reading it says, and I quote:
It should also be noted that flight crew personnel, can under some circumstances, perform Pre-Flight checks. Duplication of these checks by Flight Crew and Maintenance Personnel is not recommended by BCAG
Your comment re the MMEL? Well the MMEL states
When an item of equipment is discovered to be inoperative, it is reported by making an entry in the Aircraft Maintenance Record/Logbook as prescribed by FAR. The item is then either repaired or may be deferred per the MEL or other approved means acceptable to the Administrator prior to further operation.
Our company MEL?
A MEL item may be invoked into the Tech log (and subsequently if required, the Deferred Defect Log) by the Pilot in Command or by an appropriately Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer
More fuel.
Cheers!
GTG!