EBA negotiations...a hypothetical?
Overall, are pilots going to make more money? Yes. But was this the agreement that the union was prepared to go down the PIA path for? Debatable. There are also some concessions that are going to be an issue.
Pay - 3% backdate to start of 2023, then 3% (+ 5% first year), 3%, 3% increases. I get that's an improvement, but doesnt really address the backwards steps the pilot group has taken in recent years. Nor does it attract or retain people to the airline (which was one of the union's main arguments for increased pay). Plenty of spreadsheets doing the rounds showing how we are going backwards. Pilots will keep going to Alliance, Virgin and others.
15 year scale - helps the guys that have been around for years. Instantly get a bump from a 10 year scale to a 15 year scale. This is good for senior pilots, but at what cost? See next...
FO tiers - "A new low time pilot separate pay scale based on flight time to be implemented". Three different scales keep wages down. You are either an FO, or you are not, so pay them appropriately. This scale doesn't help the FOs, and makes them feel they've been sold out to get a 15 year Captain scale. Plus the base wage is only 3% above the award - are you kidding?! Again, the argument was we need to attract new pilots, then this terrible FO deal has been pencilled. Pilots aren't applying for QLink jobs because of the low wages, having an E scale $2000 p.a. above award won't attract them. Just hold off for the QF job or take Alliance instead.
Duty hour allowance - now paid for the whole time from commencement to sign off at home base. So it means you get paid for the overnight. This again means more money, but it seems like the wrong path has been taken, which is causing all the angst amongst the bases. Apparently Easterns were offered a big duty hour allowance increase (50% perhaps), but was for the time you were actually on duty (so you didn't get paid while off duty in a hotel). However, most QLink duties are single day duties, or a minimum rest overnights (usually one a week). So simple maths shows that most pilots would benefit from an increase to the current DHA structure rather than implementing the new DHAA structure at a lower rate. Again plenty of spreadsheets doing the rounds with current rostering proving this. The only base that benefits from this scheme is the Cairns base, which has double the overnights of other bases, including many three day trips. The argument is the union wants this to avoid the company rostering big trips in the future. I'm not convinced it will make a difference, and most bases lose out on the higher rate and structure that was a possibility. Overall, the company dodged a financial bullet by not having to accept the AIPA Eastern DHA deal.
18/24 month type freezes. This will affect anyone wanting to go from the classic to Q400. This does not affect the Cairns base - they are all Q400s. However, it stops Adelaide pilots getting to Brisbane. If you take an Adelaide base, you are stuck there. Good luck getting people to apply now! Eastern will have to fall in line with Sunstate for their EBA, which means they won't be able to upgrade to the Q400. Plus, what happens if you take a Sydney classic job, but want to transfer to Brisbane (like many new FOs). Again, you cant do this with a type freeze. Overall, there is no benefit to the pilot group for this concession - only career and base stagnation, but this benefits the company big time with reduced training and relocation costs. But if you live in FNQ you wouldn't be aware of this problem...
2am sign ons - another concession to 'fund' this average EBA. Again, this doesn't affect Cairns pilots. But Brisbane pilots will cop it because they do the early FIFO charters. The union claims they want lifestyle, this absolutely ruins lifestyle even if it's only a couple of times a roster.
10 days off a month. Seems pretty good but there are some massive question marks. The company can buy back one day at roster publish. So if I bid for days off, and get awarded them, can the company force a buy back one of these? If so, that's not what I'd want as it ruins the bidding system. They need to only be able to buy back non requested days off. The devil is in the detail, hopefully the committee thought of this.
The buy back is at a day's rate. Sounds ok, but it's only half a current day off payment. So FOs will get an extra $300 pre tax a month, and Captains $600 (approximately depending on scale). "The undertaking from the company is to resource to a level where all pilots receive 10 days off at roster publish". Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha, are you kidding? This will never happen due "resourcing or operational constraints".
Overall, the in principle agreement is going to create massive division. Back to the bad old days where Eastern pilots hate Sunstate pilots because Sunstate took a selfish and turd deal. But now Sunstate pilots will also resent Sunstate pilots - the agreement benefits Cairns pilots the most and it's almost like the committee forgot there was an Adelaide base. And when the lead negotiator is a senior Cairns pilot, you can see why some pilots believe, correctly or not, that the agreement has been developed to benefit certain individuals the most.
The silence from the union and committee has been deafening. The pilots are seething but once again the union isn't communicating with the members to explain the benefits or structure of the deal. We got one catch up to discuss the negotiation months ago, but none of the "in principle" details were discussed. Pilots are going to vote no just to show what they think about the committee's leadership.
Pay - 3% backdate to start of 2023, then 3% (+ 5% first year), 3%, 3% increases. I get that's an improvement, but doesnt really address the backwards steps the pilot group has taken in recent years. Nor does it attract or retain people to the airline (which was one of the union's main arguments for increased pay). Plenty of spreadsheets doing the rounds showing how we are going backwards. Pilots will keep going to Alliance, Virgin and others.
15 year scale - helps the guys that have been around for years. Instantly get a bump from a 10 year scale to a 15 year scale. This is good for senior pilots, but at what cost? See next...
FO tiers - "A new low time pilot separate pay scale based on flight time to be implemented". Three different scales keep wages down. You are either an FO, or you are not, so pay them appropriately. This scale doesn't help the FOs, and makes them feel they've been sold out to get a 15 year Captain scale. Plus the base wage is only 3% above the award - are you kidding?! Again, the argument was we need to attract new pilots, then this terrible FO deal has been pencilled. Pilots aren't applying for QLink jobs because of the low wages, having an E scale $2000 p.a. above award won't attract them. Just hold off for the QF job or take Alliance instead.
Duty hour allowance - now paid for the whole time from commencement to sign off at home base. So it means you get paid for the overnight. This again means more money, but it seems like the wrong path has been taken, which is causing all the angst amongst the bases. Apparently Easterns were offered a big duty hour allowance increase (50% perhaps), but was for the time you were actually on duty (so you didn't get paid while off duty in a hotel). However, most QLink duties are single day duties, or a minimum rest overnights (usually one a week). So simple maths shows that most pilots would benefit from an increase to the current DHA structure rather than implementing the new DHAA structure at a lower rate. Again plenty of spreadsheets doing the rounds with current rostering proving this. The only base that benefits from this scheme is the Cairns base, which has double the overnights of other bases, including many three day trips. The argument is the union wants this to avoid the company rostering big trips in the future. I'm not convinced it will make a difference, and most bases lose out on the higher rate and structure that was a possibility. Overall, the company dodged a financial bullet by not having to accept the AIPA Eastern DHA deal.
18/24 month type freezes. This will affect anyone wanting to go from the classic to Q400. This does not affect the Cairns base - they are all Q400s. However, it stops Adelaide pilots getting to Brisbane. If you take an Adelaide base, you are stuck there. Good luck getting people to apply now! Eastern will have to fall in line with Sunstate for their EBA, which means they won't be able to upgrade to the Q400. Plus, what happens if you take a Sydney classic job, but want to transfer to Brisbane (like many new FOs). Again, you cant do this with a type freeze. Overall, there is no benefit to the pilot group for this concession - only career and base stagnation, but this benefits the company big time with reduced training and relocation costs. But if you live in FNQ you wouldn't be aware of this problem...
2am sign ons - another concession to 'fund' this average EBA. Again, this doesn't affect Cairns pilots. But Brisbane pilots will cop it because they do the early FIFO charters. The union claims they want lifestyle, this absolutely ruins lifestyle even if it's only a couple of times a roster.
10 days off a month. Seems pretty good but there are some massive question marks. The company can buy back one day at roster publish. So if I bid for days off, and get awarded them, can the company force a buy back one of these? If so, that's not what I'd want as it ruins the bidding system. They need to only be able to buy back non requested days off. The devil is in the detail, hopefully the committee thought of this.
The buy back is at a day's rate. Sounds ok, but it's only half a current day off payment. So FOs will get an extra $300 pre tax a month, and Captains $600 (approximately depending on scale). "The undertaking from the company is to resource to a level where all pilots receive 10 days off at roster publish". Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha, are you kidding? This will never happen due "resourcing or operational constraints".
Overall, the in principle agreement is going to create massive division. Back to the bad old days where Eastern pilots hate Sunstate pilots because Sunstate took a selfish and turd deal. But now Sunstate pilots will also resent Sunstate pilots - the agreement benefits Cairns pilots the most and it's almost like the committee forgot there was an Adelaide base. And when the lead negotiator is a senior Cairns pilot, you can see why some pilots believe, correctly or not, that the agreement has been developed to benefit certain individuals the most.
The silence from the union and committee has been deafening. The pilots are seething but once again the union isn't communicating with the members to explain the benefits or structure of the deal. We got one catch up to discuss the negotiation months ago, but none of the "in principle" details were discussed. Pilots are going to vote no just to show what they think about the committee's leadership.
Last edited by Aimpoint; 25th Oct 2023 at 10:16.
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Sounds like it will be a no then. This is the most favourable circumstances I’ve seen since the 90’s to get some gains into a contract ( as opposed to nearly keeping up with inflation) so if you don’t vote for a contract that makes you smile this year, you probably never will.
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so if you don’t vote for a contract that makes you smile this year, you probably never will
Excellent summary Aimpoint.
A little further on the duty hours issue:
Classic guys and gals don’t like it. I haven’t seen any of those spreadsheets but I have seen a lot of FOs particularly banding together on this and putting their own ideas forward.
In Sydney the classic fleet does bugger all overnights compared to the 400, and almost exclusively 9hr min rest. The feeling is that the overnight bump is not as equitable an idea as a straight increase, and rewards a fleet that’s already paid more.
In Melbourne there are more hotel trips, and a whole lot more drivers that miss the six blade days. A bit of attraction and retention focus there and in Adelaide wouldn’t go astray either. No one would need a fleet freeze if there wasn’t two pay scales for the same job.
I don’t know what the best answer is this time around, and personally that’s my irritation: none of these ideas have been sold to the group, just slapped on an email that says we’ve agreed.
I don’t think half of them were on the survey, whenever that was.
A little further on the duty hours issue:
Classic guys and gals don’t like it. I haven’t seen any of those spreadsheets but I have seen a lot of FOs particularly banding together on this and putting their own ideas forward.
In Sydney the classic fleet does bugger all overnights compared to the 400, and almost exclusively 9hr min rest. The feeling is that the overnight bump is not as equitable an idea as a straight increase, and rewards a fleet that’s already paid more.
In Melbourne there are more hotel trips, and a whole lot more drivers that miss the six blade days. A bit of attraction and retention focus there and in Adelaide wouldn’t go astray either. No one would need a fleet freeze if there wasn’t two pay scales for the same job.
I don’t know what the best answer is this time around, and personally that’s my irritation: none of these ideas have been sold to the group, just slapped on an email that says we’ve agreed.
I don’t think half of them were on the survey, whenever that was.
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Company Rules of Engagement Handbook:
Rule 4 - identify who are on the council, identify their needs and reward them.
The proposed EA rewards the life linkers. That’s always been the case at Sunstate probably Eastern as well.
While the majors are recruiting LINK will always bleed pilots. For the young kids watching, apply for a jet gig while you can. You’ll be earning bare minimum to pay rent in Sydney at LINK. Most FOs have side gigs and looks like that won’t change any time soon …
Rex is your quickest way to a Qantas Group Jet gig. The numbers are there to prove this.
Only 6 months ago - CP quote : “QantasLink will be the only way pathway into mainline”. Ironic how there is a mainline job advert for externals as we speak.
Rule 4 - identify who are on the council, identify their needs and reward them.
The proposed EA rewards the life linkers. That’s always been the case at Sunstate probably Eastern as well.
While the majors are recruiting LINK will always bleed pilots. For the young kids watching, apply for a jet gig while you can. You’ll be earning bare minimum to pay rent in Sydney at LINK. Most FOs have side gigs and looks like that won’t change any time soon …
Rex is your quickest way to a Qantas Group Jet gig. The numbers are there to prove this.
Only 6 months ago - CP quote : “QantasLink will be the only way pathway into mainline”. Ironic how there is a mainline job advert for externals as we speak.
As someone in the 10 year plus bracket, the immediate pay bump is about the only benefit to this proposed EBA and if I was selfish, I’d vote yes based on that alone. I do high duty hours but little overnights so the DHAAAAAAAAA rate means 4/5 of **** all to me.
There appears to be close to zero in it for 80% of the pilot group. The boost in pay to the F/O’s will only get them above the award for a few years and then they’ll be back to where we are now.
The company can’t even recruit to fund the current 8 days off a roster, so you’re never going to see 10 days off. They’ll just accept the extra 8 hrs pay a roster and move on.
I’ve only heard one person openly say they support the proposed agreement. ADL base and just about every F/O appears to be in the ‘No’ camp.
Voting this up will be a wasted opportunity as it’s never been a better time to make significant inroads into years of eroded conditions. That doesn’t mean we need to go straight for the pitchforks and flaming torches style of PIA, but the negotiating team need to go back to the table and they need a clear mandate from a united pilot group to do that.
There appears to be close to zero in it for 80% of the pilot group. The boost in pay to the F/O’s will only get them above the award for a few years and then they’ll be back to where we are now.
The company can’t even recruit to fund the current 8 days off a roster, so you’re never going to see 10 days off. They’ll just accept the extra 8 hrs pay a roster and move on.
I’ve only heard one person openly say they support the proposed agreement. ADL base and just about every F/O appears to be in the ‘No’ camp.
Voting this up will be a wasted opportunity as it’s never been a better time to make significant inroads into years of eroded conditions. That doesn’t mean we need to go straight for the pitchforks and flaming torches style of PIA, but the negotiating team need to go back to the table and they need a clear mandate from a united pilot group to do that.
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Current rumour I've heard is that this will delay our usage of PIA past an expiry date of the vote, and we'll have to vote again to undertake PIA, can anyone confirm?
Voting this up will be a wasted opportunity as it’s never been a better time to make significant inroads into years of eroded conditions. That doesn’t mean we need to go straight for the pitchforks and flaming torches style of PIA, but the negotiating team need to go back to the table and they need a clear mandate from a united pilot group to do that.
EBA time always used to frustrate me to no end back in my Dash days. IMO every proposed change always seemed to be of benefit to a handful of people who ran the show and there really wasn’t any point proposing anything else at the info nights as everything anyone suggested got shot down by old mate.
Everything always annoyingly got voted up first time under the threat of removing backpay/one off payments, as there were so many people planning to go elsewhere that they didn’t really care about a lot of the detail, just getting their payments before pissing off.
Everything always annoyingly got voted up first time under the threat of removing backpay/one off payments, as there were so many people planning to go elsewhere that they didn’t really care about a lot of the detail, just getting their payments before pissing off.
It's disappointing that the bargaining team have accepted "we'll do our best".
so we have someone who is looking to move from a base of 144% of the award to 151% of the award telling people that 103% of the award is good enough for new starters, when the new starters pay scale was bought in it was 108% of the award
6. MEETINGS AND NOTICE OF MEETINGS
(a) The Committee of a Council may, at its discretion, convene an Annual Ordinary General Meeting at such date, time and place as shall be prescribed by the Committee of the Council.
(b) All other meetings held during the year shall be called Extraordinary General Meetings.
(c) The Committee of a Council may whenever it thinks fit, convene an Extraordinary General Meeting, and the Committee shall, on the requisition in writing of at least fifteen of the Members of the Council, or 5 percent of the Members of the Council, whichever is the less, forthwith proceed to convene an Extraordinary General Meeting of the Council.
(d) The requisition shall state the objects of the meeting, and shall be signed by the requisitionists, and deposited with the Secretary of the Council.
(a) The Committee of a Council may, at its discretion, convene an Annual Ordinary General Meeting at such date, time and place as shall be prescribed by the Committee of the Council.
(b) All other meetings held during the year shall be called Extraordinary General Meetings.
(c) The Committee of a Council may whenever it thinks fit, convene an Extraordinary General Meeting, and the Committee shall, on the requisition in writing of at least fifteen of the Members of the Council, or 5 percent of the Members of the Council, whichever is the less, forthwith proceed to convene an Extraordinary General Meeting of the Council.
(d) The requisition shall state the objects of the meeting, and shall be signed by the requisitionists, and deposited with the Secretary of the Council.
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According to last night's email, a class 'A' Q400 FO will earn $14000 less PA than a 'normal' FO. By year 4 the gap will be nearly $16000.
You've sold out the FO ranks and future pilots.
Anyone applying to QantasLink should be very concerned about this. Do not accept a base you cannot see yourself living in for 24 months. This clause only benefits the company, and seems to forgot there's an Adelaide base. Adelaide is a great place to live but new hirers that want Brisbane should not apply for that base if this EBA gets up. You will be stuck on the Q300 and therefore can't move to the Q400 which is a Brisbane base. You've given the company a massive training cost saving with this clause.
Committee pretending this is a win they achieved is laughable. CASA would never allow this FRMS time off period to be walked back.
First, if the company isn't honoring the current agreement, then what the actual F has the committee been doing the last few years?
And how does this make rostering of overnights more equitable across different bases? The nature of Cairns flying means you will get the most overnights and make more money. Adelaide get stuff all overnights, which are usually min rest or close. So certain bases are clearly going to make more money.
Come clean and explain what the original DHA offer was. Word on the street is AIPA were offered a 50% increase, which meant more money overall in everyone's pockets.
You've sold out the FO ranks and future pilots.
Fleet freeze of 18 months from check to line or 24 months from employment/award, whichever occurs first. This applies to new hires only.
Minimum guaranteed 12 hours between shifts at home base. Whilst this is in current FRMS it was never in our EA. This is now locked in. If the company changes this in their FRMS we will be protected.
The current DHA is only payable for duty hours whereas the new DHAA is payable on all hours from sign-on at home base to sign off at home base. This means that DHAA is payable for all duty time and time away from home. In that regard DHAA is a significant lifestyle protection/compensation for those who are taken away from their home and family for work. The company needs to start to honour the EA rostering agreement letter. There is now a significant cost associated with continuing to roster pilots in a non-regional lifestyle pattern. We would hope that over time it helps drive less wasted time at hotels away from home base, less multi day trips and better regional pilot lifestyle. We also hope it will eventually make the rostering of overnights a bit more equitable across the different bases.
First, if the company isn't honoring the current agreement, then what the actual F has the committee been doing the last few years?
And how does this make rostering of overnights more equitable across different bases? The nature of Cairns flying means you will get the most overnights and make more money. Adelaide get stuff all overnights, which are usually min rest or close. So certain bases are clearly going to make more money.
Come clean and explain what the original DHA offer was. Word on the street is AIPA were offered a 50% increase, which meant more money overall in everyone's pockets.
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And how does this make rostering of overnights more equitable across different bases? The nature of Cairns flying means you will get the most overnights and make more money. Adelaide get stuff all overnights, which are usually min rest or close. So certain bases are clearly going to make more money.
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