Network Aviation PIA
There are a lot of variables in there that have to go your way. I’m pretty sure that Jetstar NZ still do 2 sector BOC flying, they’re a QF group Airline flying A-320’s as well, if it was easy I imagine they would drop it quick smart. It just seems that now is the time to protect it. If it’s not that likely then you should get the protections with little fuss.
I’ll again ask for any EA reference from an Australian airline that comes close to this? All of them largely point to the approved FRMS…
So why not include international again?
If you want Short Haul pay then expect the conditions that go with it
I’m going to retire from the conversation for the night. I hope that drawing attention to the difficulties of mixing BOC with a domestic flying is useful in some way.
Best of luck.
The management of BOC and fatigue lives in an FRMS at all comparable airlines and as such if that’s the issue at Network then maybe focus on that.
I think international sectors are a bit too far outside what is probable so we don’t need to waste time there. Domestic BOTC sectors are a real possibility especially out of mine sites. It’s no secret most of the big mining companies want direct flights from the WA mines to the east coast. So much so I believe SH are doing 1 already. Combine that with no available parking or gates at Perth it certainly seems this type of flying will be on the horizon. Signing on at a mine site, Brisbane return BOTC and pax home on the flight to and from Perth. Remember paxing at the end of a duty isn’t duty time.
Stating “wow Darwin and Hobart” I’m not sure the point you are trying to make. Sign on at 8am and sign off at 1800 for a Hobart is pretty easy. What happens if it’s now sign on at 8pm and sign off at 6am? All of a sudden the “easy” Hobart return isn’t so easy is the point I was trying to convey.
Stating “wow Darwin and Hobart” I’m not sure the point you are trying to make. Sign on at 8am and sign off at 1800 for a Hobart is pretty easy. What happens if it’s now sign on at 8pm and sign off at 6am? All of a sudden the “easy” Hobart return isn’t so easy is the point I was trying to convey.
IF, however, you worked for another AOC it would perhaps be possible as their limits allow for longer duties at afternoon sign on. NAA FRMS is in fact quite limiting for BOC ops. Don’t let that fact get in the way of imagination though.
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By asking for a clause or reference from another EA that covers off what you’re asking for I’m trying to portray that no similar airline within Australia has anything like what you’re asking for within an EA. These are managed to varying degrees of success within an FRMS. Maybe improving the reporting rate of fatigue would help resolve the issue for Network Pilots.
If you want Short Haul pay then expect the conditions that go with it. Some of the protections in the proposed deal around other rostering clauses do not exist within the QF Short Haul or JQ EA.
Please do not take my word for it but rather go and read the full documents that are readily available through Fairwork and possibly your union (they are for AFAP members).
Their back of clock (or Late Night Operations) can be summarised as:
- An LNO is more than 90mins between 23:00 - 05:30
- After an LNO, the pilot has 30 hours rest in home base, or if at an outport the rest can be less than 18 hours but the next duty can only be one sector (max of 2.5 hours)
- Paxing after LNO limited to 2 hours (ie no operating a red eye to east coast and then paxing back to Perth)
- Signing on after 10pm has max FDP of 10 hours
-These rules essentially mean you can only do one sector LNO (ie no red eye returns)
- In the 36 hour period prior to 3 early starts in a row, you can’t have done an LNO.
So can you do a Hobart return signing on at 6pm can you? Upwards of 8 hours flight time from what I’m told. Hmmm.. let’s see… one hour sign on, 40mins turn around… then 15 mins sign off. Add traffic holding and, well crap, you’re over pal. 10 hour max. If you knew your limits you’d know it most likely can’t be rostered. Knowledge is power.
IF, however, you worked for another AOC it would perhaps be possible as their limits allow for longer duties at afternoon sign on. NAA FRMS is in fact quite limiting for BOC ops. Don’t let that fact get in the way of imagination though.
IF, however, you worked for another AOC it would perhaps be possible as their limits allow for longer duties at afternoon sign on. NAA FRMS is in fact quite limiting for BOC ops. Don’t let that fact get in the way of imagination though.
What you have described appears to be the system working even if it takes regulator input (which is part of an FRMS under trial) if the clauses are stipulated in the EA then your only chance to change them if they aren’t working would be the next negotiation.
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Because you said earlier that Network can’t do International with its AOC.
SH won’t do 2 sector BOC though.
I’m going to retire from the conversation for the night. I hope that drawing attention to the difficulties of mixing BOC with a domestic flying is useful in some way.
Best of luck.
SH won’t do 2 sector BOC though.
I’m going to retire from the conversation for the night. I hope that drawing attention to the difficulties of mixing BOC with a domestic flying is useful in some way.
Best of luck.
Last edited by I Need Of A Change; 30th Dec 2023 at 22:08.
If those partaking (rostered) in the trail all find it fatiguing and report it accordingly
The thing I wasn’t factoring in was human nature. All along the path individuals are motivated by different things and take action ( or don’t) to meet their own ends. Like I said earlier, the head of safety won’t see an increase in fatigue reporting as a fatigue problem, they will se it as an improved reporting culture because it suits their end goals. It’s not even a conscious thing, it’s human nature. The fatigued F/O will roll the dice that they can get through another BOC without incident, rather than come to the attention of the person they need to impress to get a command interview.
what are the chances of it being a permenant fixture on your roster?
Its not my contract and not my vote, maybe you’re right that it should be dealt with at a later date if it becomes a problem, just putting my experience out there in case some Network pilots have not considered how significant the possibility of BOC flying is.
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No earlies prior to BOC duty and then a rest day ( not one of your days off) following the BOC, and then no earlies as first duty after BOC.
Basically some protection against having to make large adjustments to your circadian rhythm. As it stands now is there anything to stop them rostering something like this;
Monday-Early duty
Tuesday into Wednesday - BOC
Thursday- Day off
Friday- Early duty
If it’s possible for the computer to spit out something like that then it’s my opinion that it will happen ( operational requirements etc) and that most pilots will end up using their days off to recover and often not succeeding. If your protections already prevent it then great.
Basically some protection against having to make large adjustments to your circadian rhythm. As it stands now is there anything to stop them rostering something like this;
Monday-Early duty
Tuesday into Wednesday - BOC
Thursday- Day off
Friday- Early duty
If it’s possible for the computer to spit out something like that then it’s my opinion that it will happen ( operational requirements etc) and that most pilots will end up using their days off to recover and often not succeeding. If your protections already prevent it then great.
Dreaming if you think you’ll get that Tuesday off to rest
They could change the limits to similar to short haul, for example. But good luck doing many of our other, very profitable, early morning starts with their limits.
Let me fix this for you: Tuesday you’ll be working.
Monday- sign on 0400 sign off lunch time
Tuesday- Sign on 7pm
Wednesday - sign off 5am
Thursday- Day off
Friday- sign on 0400 sign off lunch time
Dreaming if you think you’ll get that Tuesday off to rest
Is the above explanation any clearer? And more to the point, do you think the above would be sustainable if you were rostered that twice a month for a year?
Keep in mind that I don’t know the Network flying well and am just trying to point out situations to be weary of.
Sorry Soseg, I probably didn’t make it very clear, what I meant was something along the lines of;
Monday- sign on 0400 sign off lunch time
Tuesday- Sign on 7pm
Wednesday - sign off 5am
Thursday- Day off
Friday- sign on 0400 sign off lunch time
I wasn’t suggesting Tuesday would be off at all, I meant to show that Tuesday evening you would sign on to do a BOC which signs off on Wednesday morning.
Is the above explanation any clearer? And more to the point, do you think the above would be sustainable if you were rostered that twice a month for a year?
Keep in mind that I don’t know the Network flying well and am just trying to point out situations to be weary of.
Monday- sign on 0400 sign off lunch time
Tuesday- Sign on 7pm
Wednesday - sign off 5am
Thursday- Day off
Friday- sign on 0400 sign off lunch time
I wasn’t suggesting Tuesday would be off at all, I meant to show that Tuesday evening you would sign on to do a BOC which signs off on Wednesday morning.
Is the above explanation any clearer? And more to the point, do you think the above would be sustainable if you were rostered that twice a month for a year?
Keep in mind that I don’t know the Network flying well and am just trying to point out situations to be weary of.
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If they operate fatigued and have an event online that brings their standards into question then that might hurt their chance of being successful.
If they operate fatigued and have an event online that brings their standards into question then that might hurt their chance of being successful.
In a slightly disconcerting way your posts remind me of me….ten years ago.
Best of luck as always.