Virgin pilots
Those here who are not across why my figures are not up to date with the mood of VA pilots , not up to date with the economy in Australia, not up to date with the cost of living, not up to date with what people are earning in Australia, not up to date with living a reasonable respectable and sustainable life as a pilot. Having both at work and away a comfortable and good life style.
I guess they are union delegates, if not they are plain dumb. How is our current pay and conditions fair realistic and competitive in the work environment. They are not, they are crap , working 70 to 85 hrs a roster to earn a fair wage is totally ******.
And as I have stated, my wage is time with company related , 350k is the time high end.
To them I say , my experience is VA pilots agree with my numbers and they want their respective union to do their job and deliver.
I guess they are union delegates, if not they are plain dumb. How is our current pay and conditions fair realistic and competitive in the work environment. They are not, they are crap , working 70 to 85 hrs a roster to earn a fair wage is totally ******.
And as I have stated, my wage is time with company related , 350k is the time high end.
To them I say , my experience is VA pilots agree with my numbers and they want their respective union to do their job and deliver.
Thats what they tell me . And I ask, I talk to them, that’s me.
And is very interesting, those on the Union delegation once were very outspoken, now they are toeing the Union and Company line , why.
Yes I know why , again ask me not here but in person.
Yes I know why , again ask me not here but in person.
Thread Starter
Christ, some here are dumb and have their head still in the sand.
I really didn’t want to get into my numbers here , happy in person ; hell do u own research re wages / conditions today.
As I said 9 out 10 pilots I fly with and talk to agree with my numbers. A few here do not and I respect that, but you are really wrong.
An MCG of 60 is above the current level. As I said I do not believe Pilots should be driven by productivity , we are flying aircraft remember.
But I am a realist and accept the inept unions have put us in this position over many years.
My wage covers BOTH flying AND Duty hrs starts at 300 k for a New Capt and reaches 350 k in 4 bands of time to a 12 year Capt, which would capture the vast majority of VA pilots.
A band very importantly recognises both experience and loyalty to the business, something again our unions have forgotten. Something the company unfortunately does not want to recognise, but would rather spent time money on so many things that don’t really mater and the vast majority of Pilots do not agree with or want to accept. Hell we can all name so so many.
And yes I understand where you live and you background influences your expectations.
Some of live in areas where a nice resident cost 2 million, some 20 or more Million.
Thats really not relevant, wages do not depend on your post code , they depend on your work.
Pilots have been undersold now for over some 50 yrs by unions and employers.
Those I fly with and talk to have had enough, they SAY they really want change. I hope so.
My numbers make us Pilots competitive again.
And again to those here who don’t get it , some who are with VA and others who are not ( RR) I say Mate you are so out of touch it beggars belief.
I really didn’t want to get into my numbers here , happy in person ; hell do u own research re wages / conditions today.
As I said 9 out 10 pilots I fly with and talk to agree with my numbers. A few here do not and I respect that, but you are really wrong.
An MCG of 60 is above the current level. As I said I do not believe Pilots should be driven by productivity , we are flying aircraft remember.
But I am a realist and accept the inept unions have put us in this position over many years.
My wage covers BOTH flying AND Duty hrs starts at 300 k for a New Capt and reaches 350 k in 4 bands of time to a 12 year Capt, which would capture the vast majority of VA pilots.
A band very importantly recognises both experience and loyalty to the business, something again our unions have forgotten. Something the company unfortunately does not want to recognise, but would rather spent time money on so many things that don’t really mater and the vast majority of Pilots do not agree with or want to accept. Hell we can all name so so many.
And yes I understand where you live and you background influences your expectations.
Some of live in areas where a nice resident cost 2 million, some 20 or more Million.
Thats really not relevant, wages do not depend on your post code , they depend on your work.
Pilots have been undersold now for over some 50 yrs by unions and employers.
Those I fly with and talk to have had enough, they SAY they really want change. I hope so.
My numbers make us Pilots competitive again.
And again to those here who don’t get it , some who are with VA and others who are not ( RR) I say Mate you are so out of touch it beggars belief.
Last edited by farrari; 1st Apr 2024 at 03:53.
Pilots have been undersold now for over some 50 yrs by unions and employers.
Thread Starter
At least I can say my conversation has got some talking, we are in April 2 months till our current crap EBA expires yet very little or no talk from the company.
My bet is Trump is re elected and our new EBA is terrible.
My bet is Trump is re elected and our new EBA is terrible.
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Speaking of VA:
Earlier today Virgin Australia flight VA1845 (VH-YVD): landing gear failed to retract, they’ve fixed IT midair but been advised to return to PER/YPPH. The aircraft is 3 tonnes over weight so they have to circle for an hour and a half to burn fuel prior to landing. Has landed back in PER, good result.
Earlier today Virgin Australia flight VA1845 (VH-YVD): landing gear failed to retract, they’ve fixed IT midair but been advised to return to PER/YPPH. The aircraft is 3 tonnes over weight so they have to circle for an hour and a half to burn fuel prior to landing. Has landed back in PER, good result.
Just a quick question for the VA fundies !!! To get on the 320s in Perth, is it the same application and interview process as the one for Virgin Australia ? Any pointers would be great !!
Any EBA based on productivity for Airline Pilots is at best wrong and worst insane. Pilots should not be on a productivity based wage.
They should be on a time with the company based wage .
Any MCG over 60 hrs on a pay rate for Captains of less than $350,000 is unacceptable, un professional, uncompetitive and so low in the real world it is an insult to their worth.
As I see it , my financial numbers are a dream.
Pilots out there think 65 67 for MCG is acceptable, for a lot less than my K.
Why are some selling yourself so so short and are ok with VA continuing to have a ‘ lend of you ‘
90 percent of the pilots I fly with agree, they are so over the poor pay long flying and duty hrs , generally now at near max duty with min rest , poor food , no acceptable roster system and most Management who are in the many but never come out of the office to the aircraft to see for them selves what is actually going on with the product.
Those here who have a go at me , are either just plain dum and uneducated in business or may be just having fun.
Again I invite them to talk to me next time we see each other, I will. Yes I do know who u are , which is fine .
U have a right to your opinion and voice..
They should be on a time with the company based wage .
Any MCG over 60 hrs on a pay rate for Captains of less than $350,000 is unacceptable, un professional, uncompetitive and so low in the real world it is an insult to their worth.
As I see it , my financial numbers are a dream.
Pilots out there think 65 67 for MCG is acceptable, for a lot less than my K.
Why are some selling yourself so so short and are ok with VA continuing to have a ‘ lend of you ‘
90 percent of the pilots I fly with agree, they are so over the poor pay long flying and duty hrs , generally now at near max duty with min rest , poor food , no acceptable roster system and most Management who are in the many but never come out of the office to the aircraft to see for them selves what is actually going on with the product.
Those here who have a go at me , are either just plain dum and uneducated in business or may be just having fun.
Again I invite them to talk to me next time we see each other, I will. Yes I do know who u are , which is fine .
U have a right to your opinion and voice..
You lot are getting distracted again.
You have taken pay freezes and cuts to help the company get by, those days are over, so it’s now time to return to the 2018 agreement and adjusted for the time that has passed. So let’s go back to the old agreement minus the pay cuts and see what the minimum would be today…
1 July 2024. 69hrs. Captain. The figure is 290k. That’s on the lower end of the scale also, inflation is a tad more aggressive since that agreement so it’s really much more.
You have basically backpedaled a decade if you don’t go back to what you had. The ball is in your court, YOU helped the company out when it was on its knees (hasn’t it been for the last 15 years though), time to go BACK to what you had.
Virgin has a lot of FOs that have had delayed commands due to the sheer corporate incompetence from this business over the last decade. Think very carefully about what you are going to fight for, haven’t you put up with enough in recent times? Protect your future and final years which have been cut short.
You have taken pay freezes and cuts to help the company get by, those days are over, so it’s now time to return to the 2018 agreement and adjusted for the time that has passed. So let’s go back to the old agreement minus the pay cuts and see what the minimum would be today…
1 July 2024. 69hrs. Captain. The figure is 290k. That’s on the lower end of the scale also, inflation is a tad more aggressive since that agreement so it’s really much more.
You have basically backpedaled a decade if you don’t go back to what you had. The ball is in your court, YOU helped the company out when it was on its knees (hasn’t it been for the last 15 years though), time to go BACK to what you had.
Virgin has a lot of FOs that have had delayed commands due to the sheer corporate incompetence from this business over the last decade. Think very carefully about what you are going to fight for, haven’t you put up with enough in recent times? Protect your future and final years which have been cut short.
QF are coming up for negotiations, so let’s all just go PIA together. 👍🏽
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What is a good deal to most, is a deal that reinstates what has been lost, with appropriate adjustments for the years passed, will likely be a crap deal to you, but it’s a good deal for the group and more importantly, the future of the entire group.
You are not in the position as a group to negotiate in half a million dollar salaries as you claim above. You are in the position, to negotiate back in what you gave back to the company so it could survive. You want to know what a crap deal is? Anything less than that.
There is an average deal (Think Rex 737), a Good Deal (2018 reinstated plus time passed) and a Chris Deal.
I think I know what deal everyone is realistically after out of those three. It’s not the first one and certainly not the last. You need to be more realistic and understand the hole you are in, the focus this time round is simply pulling back what was taken away.
That will be a big challenge in itself, but it can be done, and it will be done.
Last edited by nomess; 10th Apr 2024 at 10:15.
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Thread Starter
Mate the so called ‘ take it or leave deal ,’ is absolute crap, I just did a 5 day trip of crap,. 12 hrs duties min rest.
Not one Captain or FO thinks differently re the offer. It’s a disgrace, it’s an insult, it’s professionally unacceptable, uncompetitive and more over bad business.
Not one of around 25 Pilots I spoke over 5 days would vote it up. They all say it’s absolutely unacceptable and tell me they have no confidence in our delegates or the two unions.
i want a EA that looks after Pilots , individuals and families. An EA that is fair , good for employees and the company.
And that is how it is .
The few here who have a go at me are TOTALLY in the minority re this, and are in some other universe.
Again I say , you are some union delegates as I know.
We are going to end up with a ‘ CRAP ‘ EA , once again. Take it or leave it ,it’s our last offer , Pathetic.
Christ , pilots do their job very very well that can not be said for many areas of the company mostly at head office who live in dream land.
Not one Captain or FO thinks differently re the offer. It’s a disgrace, it’s an insult, it’s professionally unacceptable, uncompetitive and more over bad business.
Not one of around 25 Pilots I spoke over 5 days would vote it up. They all say it’s absolutely unacceptable and tell me they have no confidence in our delegates or the two unions.
i want a EA that looks after Pilots , individuals and families. An EA that is fair , good for employees and the company.
And that is how it is .
The few here who have a go at me are TOTALLY in the minority re this, and are in some other universe.
Again I say , you are some union delegates as I know.
We are going to end up with a ‘ CRAP ‘ EA , once again. Take it or leave it ,it’s our last offer , Pathetic.
Christ , pilots do their job very very well that can not be said for many areas of the company mostly at head office who live in dream land.
Last edited by farrari; 10th Apr 2024 at 23:22.
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Well as long as no union is advocating to reduce your pilot terms and conditions as the rumour goes.
Shirley you can’t be serious! we wait and see, however:
- current days off a roster 12 / 13 (if under 65 hours)
*rumoured 11/12 days off (11 off during all peak times such as Christmas) reduction of min 6 a year more if your under 65 for the roster.
- this is massive reduction in T&C. No pilot or pilot union would go for that…. would they?
- reduction in leave availability during all peaks also??
so even less chance to have Christmas or any school holidays with family…… Shirley not ???
concessions to work rules that have you working longer? with less breaks/buffers between duties even though the promised CMS (to give a better work/lifestyle balance) which was given in exchange for a pay cut last EBA has been completely cancelled.
Shirley you can’t be serious???
Reduction in DDO payments when past midnight???
shirley not????
Plus much more (as rumoured.)
I guess we will see, but I don’t believe any pilot union would support such a thing and give principle support for their own members to vote it down (twice)….
- btw Allowances (DTA) are not your pay!!!
and a 10K retention bonus after tax is what $100 bucks a week or so??
🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼
Don’t under value yourselves. Pressure is on the company now, Expiry approaching, a sale coming.
Don’t under value yourselves.
Shirley you can’t be serious! we wait and see, however:
- current days off a roster 12 / 13 (if under 65 hours)
*rumoured 11/12 days off (11 off during all peak times such as Christmas) reduction of min 6 a year more if your under 65 for the roster.
- this is massive reduction in T&C. No pilot or pilot union would go for that…. would they?
- reduction in leave availability during all peaks also??
so even less chance to have Christmas or any school holidays with family…… Shirley not ???
concessions to work rules that have you working longer? with less breaks/buffers between duties even though the promised CMS (to give a better work/lifestyle balance) which was given in exchange for a pay cut last EBA has been completely cancelled.
Shirley you can’t be serious???
Reduction in DDO payments when past midnight???
shirley not????
Plus much more (as rumoured.)
I guess we will see, but I don’t believe any pilot union would support such a thing and give principle support for their own members to vote it down (twice)….
- btw Allowances (DTA) are not your pay!!!
and a 10K retention bonus after tax is what $100 bucks a week or so??
🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼
Don’t under value yourselves. Pressure is on the company now, Expiry approaching, a sale coming.
Don’t under value yourselves.
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We are going to end up with a ‘ CRAP ‘ EA , once again. Take it or leave it ,it’s our last offer , **** u.
Have you never been of a negotiation before? It’s standard stuff. Take it or leave it is just another tactic from any business to force the troops to sign. Seen that a million times. Stop getting so emotional over such claims. That’s what any company wants after putting out such dribble, they want you to roll over, and just sign, here you go, this is all we have, just sign, over here, please please, just sign.
The thing is, they won’t be taking it. Virgin pilots ain’t stupid mate. They are very angry and frustrated. Last offer? Thanks for the laugh. Pre EBA expiry is just the pre match entertainment.
Last edited by nomess; 10th Apr 2024 at 12:36.
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I think both parties are delusional if they don’t think $300k/200k with 69hrs is reasonable.
Typically, Domestic 69hrs flying is around 150hrs duty these days, It’s not commutable even with 12 DDO’s.
Reckon with the amount of anger at the moment, most have already committed to PIA regardless of what Bain will offer.
Typically, Domestic 69hrs flying is around 150hrs duty these days, It’s not commutable even with 12 DDO’s.
Reckon with the amount of anger at the moment, most have already committed to PIA regardless of what Bain will offer.
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Hey Nomess
‘Pulling back what was taken away’ is a grave mistake. We have had 20 years of ‘taken away’. The industrial climate is finally in our favour, I would personally like to ‘pull back’ the last 30 years. Ain’t gonna happen, but let’s not undersell ourselves. Let’s not forget the magic of compound interest for anyone under the age of 40, what you give up or fail to realise now will be very expensive in the long run. And as for the ‘coolaid’, Bain have made their money back already and VA was always going to be recycled as a narrow body domestic op, there were about 20 entities interested during the admin. I have had these conversations with Chris and whilst I am not ‘all in’, he has some merit. Again……let’s not undersell ourselves. The tide will change eventually, we should take advantage of the current climate…….do you think if the shoe was on the other foot they would let it slide………not…a….chance…in…hell.
‘Pulling back what was taken away’ is a grave mistake. We have had 20 years of ‘taken away’. The industrial climate is finally in our favour, I would personally like to ‘pull back’ the last 30 years. Ain’t gonna happen, but let’s not undersell ourselves. Let’s not forget the magic of compound interest for anyone under the age of 40, what you give up or fail to realise now will be very expensive in the long run. And as for the ‘coolaid’, Bain have made their money back already and VA was always going to be recycled as a narrow body domestic op, there were about 20 entities interested during the admin. I have had these conversations with Chris and whilst I am not ‘all in’, he has some merit. Again……let’s not undersell ourselves. The tide will change eventually, we should take advantage of the current climate…….do you think if the shoe was on the other foot they would let it slide………not…a….chance…in…hell.
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The last VA EBA was a shocker, near 20 % pay cut along with other terrible conditions.
70% voted for it.Why , the company basically threatened and bullied Pilots into saying yes, pilots voted yes because of this , some because they believed in fairies that VA would bring a workable fair bidding system, others well just plain stupid and for some a pay rise. Not to mention the AFAP endorsement of it why, they wanted WB guys back ………
So here we had an opportunity to gain some pay back, VA really needs to operate this Japan sectors.
Do I need to say more.
And to his credit, even our No one pilot DG , said don’t put your hand up for it AND any call outs.
All this does is undermine the Pilot group. 10 hrs this weekend is not the answer.
70% voted for it.Why , the company basically threatened and bullied Pilots into saying yes, pilots voted yes because of this , some because they believed in fairies that VA would bring a workable fair bidding system, others well just plain stupid and for some a pay rise. Not to mention the AFAP endorsement of it why, they wanted WB guys back ………
So here we had an opportunity to gain some pay back, VA really needs to operate this Japan sectors.
Do I need to say more.
And to his credit, even our No one pilot DG , said don’t put your hand up for it AND any call outs.
All this does is undermine the Pilot group. 10 hrs this weekend is not the answer.
Mate the so called ‘ take it or leave deal ,’ is absolute crap, I just did a 5 day trip of crap,. 12 hrs duties min rest.
Not one Captain or FO thinks differently re the offer. It’s a disgrace, it’s an insult, it’s professionally unacceptable, uncompetitive and more over bad business.
Not one of around 25 Pilots I spoke over 5 days would vote it up. They all say it’s absolutely unacceptable and tell me they have no confidence in our delegates or the two unions.
i want a EA that looks after Pilots , individuals and families. An EA that is fair , good for employees and the company.
And that is how it is .
The few here who have a go at me are TOTALLY in the minority re this, and are in some other universe.
Again I say , you are some union delegates as I know.
We are going to end up with a ‘ CRAP ‘ EA , once again. Take it or leave it ,it’s our last offer , Pathetic.
Christ , pilots do their job very very well that can not be said for many areas of the company mostly at head office who live in dream land.
Not one Captain or FO thinks differently re the offer. It’s a disgrace, it’s an insult, it’s professionally unacceptable, uncompetitive and more over bad business.
Not one of around 25 Pilots I spoke over 5 days would vote it up. They all say it’s absolutely unacceptable and tell me they have no confidence in our delegates or the two unions.
i want a EA that looks after Pilots , individuals and families. An EA that is fair , good for employees and the company.
And that is how it is .
The few here who have a go at me are TOTALLY in the minority re this, and are in some other universe.
Again I say , you are some union delegates as I know.
We are going to end up with a ‘ CRAP ‘ EA , once again. Take it or leave it ,it’s our last offer , Pathetic.
Christ , pilots do their job very very well that can not be said for many areas of the company mostly at head office who live in dream land.