Australian Airline Pilot: Respected Profession or 'Noose around your Neck'
Gordon don't play naive. Everyone knows pilots get six weeks leave because of the public holiday issue. Some pilots though choose to ignore this fact when they
go into whingey mode. You don't get 6 weeks leave because you're special.
go into whingey mode. You don't get 6 weeks leave because you're special.
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We can't have a pay rise when times are bad, but then we can't have a pay rise when times are good because times will turn bad again. Roll on retirement as far as I'm concerned.
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Or you can have a pay rise paid for by giving up conditions that you will never get back and far in excess of the miserly increase you will see in your pay.
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23.4 An employee is entitled to annual leave such that the employee’s total entitlement to annual leave pursuant to the NES and this award for each year of employment is a total of 42 days annual leave, inclusive of Saturdays, Sundays and public holidays on full salary for each completed year of service, with a right to take 2 rostered days free of duty immediately before or after or one day immediately before and one day immediately after such leave period.
29.1 For the avoidance of doubt:
(a) the minimum wage provided for in this award; and
(b) the entitlement to annual leave in clause 23 — Annual leave ,
take into account an employee’s entitlement to public holidays in the NES and include compensation for all public holidays provided for in the NES .
Air Pilots Award 2020
Air Pilots Award 2020
Because of people like you, with your out-dated views our industry continues to lack in diversity and inclusion and makes it feel like we work with dinosaurs.
I'll let this one slide. One more insensitive comment from you and you'll be receiving a call from your respective pprune-HR department.
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No, I can't always get what I want. I've always worked shift in jobs that were 24/7. I've missed my share of family and life events. I (and my family) take that as part of the job. I'm on a salary. I get the same money whether I work 12hr day shift or 12hr night shift, Friday or Sunday, Anzac Day or Christmas Day, If one of my days on or off happens to be a public holiday, I don't get another day off in lieu. That's just the way it works. I (and my family) take that as part of the job. I knew it going in. There's always another option should the work you choose to do turn out to be inconvenient. No one is holding a gun to your head to accept their pay cheque.
You’re more than welcome to just ‘accept it’, but I would rather have my time back.
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Not being naive Rex, it’s just never (to my knowledge) been written into law that this is actually the intent. I was asking if that concept could be backed up at all.
Don't know about you but in my time the general populace on an hourly rate of pay got four weeks leave a year plus public holidays, as a pilot we received six weeks leave a year with attendant salary, the two extra weeks leave being recognition of lost public holidays.
Does seniority still enhance your ability to get what you bid for? If so the folk further down the list whose bid goes in the bin might be a darn sight happier if the important days days such as Xmas were spread equitably right across the work force, in this computer age its not beyond the ingenuity of man/woman to devise a program/software.
Does seniority still enhance your ability to get what you bid for? If so the folk further down the list whose bid goes in the bin might be a darn sight happier if the important days days such as Xmas were spread equitably right across the work force, in this computer age its not beyond the ingenuity of man/woman to devise a program/software.
I get 5 weeks annual leave a year. The non-shift workers in my company get 4 plus 13 public holidays. On my 4 on-4 off roster, if I take the 5 weeks it's 40 consecutive days off. For the non-shift it's 28 consecutive. Then they get the other 13 days spread through the year, generally as long weekends. Swings and roundabouts.
Last edited by Traffic_Is_Er_Was; 10th Jul 2023 at 10:32.
Don't know about you but in my time the general populace on an hourly rate of pay got four weeks leave a year plus public holidays, as a pilot we received six weeks leave a year with attendant salary, the two extra weeks leave being recognition of lost public holidays.
Does seniority still enhance your ability to get what you bid for? If so the folk further down the list whose bid goes in the bin might be a darn sight happier if the important days days such as Xmas were spread equitably right across the work force, in this computer age its not beyond the ingenuity of man/woman to devise a program/software.
Does seniority still enhance your ability to get what you bid for? If so the folk further down the list whose bid goes in the bin might be a darn sight happier if the important days days such as Xmas were spread equitably right across the work force, in this computer age its not beyond the ingenuity of man/woman to devise a program/software.
Working Public holidays under the same hourly rate with no extra pay for two extra weeks of leave making it a grand total of 6 is rubbish.
Look at other professions leave entitlements for working public holidays it is more than 6 weeks as stated in an above comment.
Not paying anything extra on these days is nothing more than taking advantage of the worker.
Yes the airline operates 365 days a year 24/7 and I get that but not at the expense of the worker.
Pretty sure American Airlines Tentative agreement is paying 5 hours something extra to work a public holiday.
Rumour is American majors might open up E3! Will be interesting to see how many stay and how many Leave if it actually happens.
Upwards in the states and race to the bottom in Australia.
My shift-working colleagues who are on an EBA, thus an hourly rate, get paid shift penalties for working a public holiday, plus still get the 5 weeks annual leave (to make up for not getting other days off in lieu). When I moved onto a salary it now, I am reliably informed by HR, includes a calculation to make up for shift penalties, however they may occur. At the end of the day, it's a contract, and I signed it. We discussed, they offered, I accepted. It's gone backward a little because of the last couple of years, but I was damn lucky to have a job right through COVID, especially with what it did to our industry. 100% of something is a hell of a lot better than 100% of nothing. I'm a long way behind CPI now but I can still pay the mortgage.
I guess it depends on what your hourly rate is calculated on in the first place, doesn't it? It would appear from Chronic Snoozers extract of the award that your rate includes a compensation for working public holidays, which, incidentally, you probably receive even if you don't work them. So, you're getting paid for them, whether you work them or not, and getting 6 weeks annual leave, when the most others can hope for is 5 weeks. Not a bad gig.
Working Public holidays under the same hourly rate with no extra pay
Last edited by Traffic_Is_Er_Was; 10th Jul 2023 at 12:46.
A far cry from the strongly worded letter that was the response to a recent spat of job advertisements, which all suggested a pathway to PERMANENT MIGRATION mind you. The AFAP and the AIPA need to wake up and start engaging their member base. It's their job to encourage participation and facilitate member advocacy and ultimately, to work for and protect our strategic interests.
I agree that US legacy’s are out of reach for E3’s unless something major changes. Or you luck out with a greencard.
vic has now 13 public holidays so a whole 1 day extra than the public. Whoopty fkn doo.
the Leave isn’t available whenever you want it
a leave day taken in march isn’t the same value as Christmas Day.
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My shift-working colleagues who are on an EBA, thus an hourly rate, get paid shift penalties for working a public holiday, plus still get the 5 weeks annual leave (to make up for not getting other days off in lieu). When I moved onto a salary it now, I am reliably informed by HR, includes a calculation to make up for shift penalties, however they may occur. At the end of the day, it's a contract, and I signed it. We discussed, they offered, I accepted. It's gone backward a little because of the last couple of years, but I was damn lucky to have a job right through COVID, especially with what it did to our industry. 100% of something is a hell of a lot better than 100% of nothing. I'm a long way behind CPI now but I can still pay the mortgage.
I guess it depends on what your hourly rate is calculated on in the first place, doesn't it? It would appear from Chronic Snoozers extract of the award that your rate includes a compensation for working public holidays, which, incidentally, you probably receive even if you don't work them. So, you're getting paid for them, whether you work them or not, and getting 6 weeks annual leave, when the most others can hope for is 5 weeks. Not a bad gig.
I guess it depends on what your hourly rate is calculated on in the first place, doesn't it? It would appear from Chronic Snoozers extract of the award that your rate includes a compensation for working public holidays, which, incidentally, you probably receive even if you don't work them. So, you're getting paid for them, whether you work them or not, and getting 6 weeks annual leave, when the most others can hope for is 5 weeks. Not a bad gig.
Think about it this way, a lot of office workers only have to take around 3 days leave to get all of Christmas/NY off, or they get paid a crap tonne to work it. Meanwhile I’d get laughed at and told here’s my pattern for Christmas for nothing else.
Time to stand up for more, in every aspect.
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I'd be careful not to conflate the Award with what is in your EBA. The Air Pilots Award is the minimum that the FWC will approve. Before an EBA is approved, and after being voted up, the BOOT is applied and this is where most awards will have pro and cons whilst meeting the better off overall test criteria. You shouldn't be getting less than what is in the Award but there is nothing wrong with benefits above the provisions of the Award. That's called market forces obviously, with a bit of good negotiation.
In terms of annual leave, the NES minimum is four weeks for normal workers and five for shift workers which includes aircrew. As mentioned above, each state has different public holidays WA 11, NSW 13 and QLD 14 depending on where those days fall in the week. So the average office worker gets to have their cake and eat it because they will be getting two weeks of public holidays and if they're on a 38 hour week, an additional RDO per month depending on how the business rosters their hours. Just because the Air Pilots Award says that 6 weeks annual leave compensates pilots for being shift workers and working public holidays, financially and in terms of time off, doesn't mean it is adequate or otherwise. It is a question of what the workforce and employer will bear. IMO, the aviation industry (accountants and HR) have long leveraged pilots' love of flying to the company's advantage. Take note of the following from the FW Act -
114 Entitlement to be absent from employment on public holiday
Employee entitled to be absent on public holiday
(1) An employee is entitled to be absent from his or her employment on a day or part‑day that is a public holiday in the place where the employee is based for work purposes.
Reasonable requests to work on public holidays
(2) However, an employer may request an employee to work on a public holiday if the request is reasonable.
(3) If an employer requests an employee to work on a public holiday, the employee may refuse the request if:
(a) the request is not reasonable; or
(b) the refusal is reasonable.
(4) In determining whether a request, or a refusal of a request, to work on a public holiday is reasonable,the following must be taken into account:
(a) the nature of the employer’s workplace or enterprise (including its operational requirements), and the nature of the work performed by the employee;
(b) the employee’s personal circumstances, including family responsibilities;
(c) whether the employee could reasonably expect that the employer might request work on the public holiday;
(d) whether the employee is entitled to receive overtime payments, penalty rates or other compensation for, or a level of remuneration that reflects an expectation of, work on the public holiday;
(e) the type of employment of the employee (for example, whether full‑time, part‑time, casual or shiftwork);
(f) the amount of notice in advance of the public holiday given by the employer when making the request;
(g) in relation to the refusal of a request—the amount of notice in advance of the public holiday given by the employee when refusing the request;
(h) any other relevant matter.
In terms of annual leave, the NES minimum is four weeks for normal workers and five for shift workers which includes aircrew. As mentioned above, each state has different public holidays WA 11, NSW 13 and QLD 14 depending on where those days fall in the week. So the average office worker gets to have their cake and eat it because they will be getting two weeks of public holidays and if they're on a 38 hour week, an additional RDO per month depending on how the business rosters their hours. Just because the Air Pilots Award says that 6 weeks annual leave compensates pilots for being shift workers and working public holidays, financially and in terms of time off, doesn't mean it is adequate or otherwise. It is a question of what the workforce and employer will bear. IMO, the aviation industry (accountants and HR) have long leveraged pilots' love of flying to the company's advantage. Take note of the following from the FW Act -
114 Entitlement to be absent from employment on public holiday
Employee entitled to be absent on public holiday
(1) An employee is entitled to be absent from his or her employment on a day or part‑day that is a public holiday in the place where the employee is based for work purposes.
Reasonable requests to work on public holidays
(2) However, an employer may request an employee to work on a public holiday if the request is reasonable.
(3) If an employer requests an employee to work on a public holiday, the employee may refuse the request if:
(a) the request is not reasonable; or
(b) the refusal is reasonable.
(4) In determining whether a request, or a refusal of a request, to work on a public holiday is reasonable,the following must be taken into account:
(a) the nature of the employer’s workplace or enterprise (including its operational requirements), and the nature of the work performed by the employee;
(b) the employee’s personal circumstances, including family responsibilities;
(c) whether the employee could reasonably expect that the employer might request work on the public holiday;
(d) whether the employee is entitled to receive overtime payments, penalty rates or other compensation for, or a level of remuneration that reflects an expectation of, work on the public holiday;
(e) the type of employment of the employee (for example, whether full‑time, part‑time, casual or shiftwork);
(f) the amount of notice in advance of the public holiday given by the employer when making the request;
(g) in relation to the refusal of a request—the amount of notice in advance of the public holiday given by the employee when refusing the request;
(h) any other relevant matter.
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Paramedics, nurses and police to name a few all get 6 or 8 weeks plus holiday rates. Poor excuse
Sorry to burst your bubble Megan but 6 weeks annual leave is garbage for working public holidays in todays day and age
Check your cis-woman privilege at the door, Megan. How dare you make such a gendered comment assuming only two genders exist.
Because of people like you, with your out-dated views our industry continues to lack in diversity and inclusion and makes it feel like we work with dinosaurs.
I'll let this one slide. One more insensitive comment from you and you'll be receiving a call from your respective PPRuNe-HR department
Because of people like you, with your out-dated views our industry continues to lack in diversity and inclusion and makes it feel like we work with dinosaurs.
I'll let this one slide. One more insensitive comment from you and you'll be receiving a call from your respective PPRuNe-HR department
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Thread Starter
Something like this 
American Airlines pilots will vote on new contract with 41.5% in pay raises
The contract is effective for four years and will be amendable on 1 August 2027 - Pilots would be back paid, based on eligible earnings:
2020 ---> 4%
2021 ---> 4%
2022 ---> 14%
2023 ---> 21%
2024 ---> 5%
2025 ---> 4%
2026 ---> 4%
2027 ---> 3%
In 2024, pilots would receive a 17% 401(k) contribution, and in 2026, the contribution would increase to 18%
That is a 41.5% real earnings boost from 2023 to 2027 or, considering the back pay, a 74.5% real earnings boost from 2020 to 2027 - not accounting for the boost in company 401(k) contributions
American Airlines pilots will vote on new contract with 41.5% in pay raises
The contract is effective for four years and will be amendable on 1 August 2027 - Pilots would be back paid, based on eligible earnings:
2020 ---> 4%
2021 ---> 4%
2022 ---> 14%
2023 ---> 21%
2024 ---> 5%
2025 ---> 4%
2026 ---> 4%
2027 ---> 3%
In 2024, pilots would receive a 17% 401(k) contribution, and in 2026, the contribution would increase to 18%
That is a 41.5% real earnings boost from 2023 to 2027 or, considering the back pay, a 74.5% real earnings boost from 2020 to 2027 - not accounting for the boost in company 401(k) contributions
Last edited by RealSatoshi; 11th Jul 2023 at 04:56.