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Old 27th May 2022, 08:32
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Originally Posted by Jet Jockey View Post
I agree with that! I would not be surprised if JQ don’t account for nearly 50% of the QF bottom line or more in the next 3 years. I hear those poor folk still frozen on 2018 pay rates with 787 skippers on 228k for 75 hrs a month flogging around the tropics with regularly in excess of 350 pob. No happy campers there!
The exodus is about to start and it wont be a trickle. 38 applications give or take a few for the latest MOU. To sit in the right hand seat of a 737. Things cant be that flash if thats happening.

KDP was the final insult for the senior guys.

What a socially and professionally devisive thing KPIs are after all. Looks good on paper but when you cant look your own troops in the eyes, is it really worth it?

When the wheels fall off, how long can you drive on the rims?


MCD.

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Old 27th May 2022, 12:35
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So where are these pilots all coming from to fly these 220s and 321s if NJS and SH don't operate them?
If there are all these expats supposedly willing to do it then why hasn't Alliance or Network got the memo that thier crewing problems are over?

Infact, where are all the pilots going to come from anyway when NJS and SH do get on with it? It seems that half of SH are trying to get to LH, and half of NJS are trying to get to Atlas as it is.
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Old 27th May 2022, 13:28
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Originally Posted by Lapon View Post
So where are these pilots all coming from to fly these 321s if SH don't operate them?
Initially - we’ve seen on this thread VA and JQ pilots are on substantially less so DEC could be sourced from them for an salary more than their current rates but below what’s being proposed for mainline. Also can get expats from overseas wanting to come home, which they will for somewhere North of $250k per year. Current mainline pilots who’ve been waiting decades (yes decades) for a command and are now surplus to requirements with the phasing out of the 737. Even 457s if they can get away with it. F/Os can be sourced from Academy graduates.

They’ll find pilots, just offer them a bit more than VA which will still be less than QF mainline.

Don’t think they wouldn’t try? They grounded an airline and outsourced all baggage handlers overnight, even though they lost in court that didn’t phase them. The Union has been neutered in providing any assistance.

It’s a clear choice between a continuation of the same conditions now or outsourced uncertainty at much lower rates for those who eventually get to fly the thing.
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Old 27th May 2022, 14:10
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Initially - we’ve seen on this thread VA and JQ pilots are on substantially less so DEC could be sourced from them for an salary more than their current rates but below what’s being proposed for mainline. Also can get expats from overseas wanting to come home, which they will for somewhere North of $250k per year. Current mainline pilots who’ve been waiting decades (yes decades) for a command and are now surplus to requirements with the phasing out of the 737. Even 457s if they can get away with it. F/Os can be sourced from Academy graduates.

They’ll find pilots, just offer them a bit more than VA which will still be less than QF mainline.

Don’t think they wouldn’t try? They grounded an airline and outsourced all baggage handlers overnight, even though they lost in court that didn’t phase them. The Union has been neutered in providing any assistance.

It’s a clear choice between a continuation of the same conditions now or outsourced uncertainty at much lower rates for those who eventually get to fly the thing.
The fact Qantas lost in court over that will limit thier success at another attempt, as will will the slow phased approach with Winton.
QF were found to be wrong with thier handling of the baggage handlers, but the replacements had already been hired so the damage was done.

Everyone has thier price, but most expats I know are expats for a reason... and for many Australia wasn't worth thier while under the old conditions, so a cut to those won't entice them back either.

VA, 457s and acadamy grads haven't been able to help Network or Alliance, so while theoretically possible, it seems unlikely.
Anything is always possible, but the at the heart of the matter is that the company need the pilots they have (and then some) for Winton to be a success.

Hurrying to accept a deal out of fear is how not to negotiate.

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Old 27th May 2022, 14:28
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Originally Posted by Lapon View Post
The fact Qantas lost in court over that will limit thier success at another attempt, as will will the slow phased approach with Winton.
QF were found to be wrong with thier handling of the baggage handlers, but the replacements had already been hired so the damage was done.
I believe transmission of business only effects employees terminated then rehired under lower conditions. It’s not as if all SH will be sacked overnight, there’s probably enough slow retirement of the 73 to slowly phase SH pilots back into LH, but that just means an end to promotions for another 10 years and a 30 year wait for command.

Everyone has thier price, but most expats I know are expats for a reason... and for many Australia wasn't worth thier while under the old conditions, so a cut to those won't entice them back either.
A cut from what? Conditions less than SH but more than VA will be enticing, and not just for expats. How many ex pilots are out there either un or underemployed? CX for instance.

VA, 457s and acadamy grads haven't been able to help Network or Alliance, so while theoretically possible, it seems unlikely.
VA would be taking a pay cut to go to Network or Alliance at the moment, but possibly not for a future A321 contract. Alliance sourcing 457s now, and Academy graduates can be geared toward jets after training. That will take some time to set up, but it’s a probable future.

The issue they have made it very clear what a “No” vote entails, and when they say something in the IR sphere they usually mean it despite how some they are bluffing. No one of those proposing a No vote have made any case for what happens post a No vote, only statements along the lines of “let some other mob fly the 321”. That’s how we’re going to treat the future careers of junior pilots? And all this for proposed 321 pay and conditions that are very similar to current ones, something not many suitable replacements in the industry would baulk at.
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Old 28th May 2022, 00:08
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I dont work for Qantas so I dont know the specifics of what is being offered, but I dare say there is more than a base pay issue at stake.

If another entity was to be created from scratch I dont think it will be for terms 'slightly less' that SH already has or it wouldn't be worthwhile, which circles back to who would do what is arguably enroaching on A330 flying.

Alliance haven't got 457's, they have only said they need them, there are no grads, and I'm sure if there were an abundance of unemployed VA pilots or homesick expats they would have already gone to to Alliance or Network as to pay the bills / get home.

​​​​As sure as night follows day the next phase of Winton in the years ahead will 'require' further cuts to T&Cs to the point you need to ask where you are going to draw the line and say no.
If you don't have have one you might as well go and join the likes of Network now instead of waiting to be on par anyway.
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Old 28th May 2022, 01:02
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From the outside, the level of Stockholm syndrome justification posting amongst some of these posters outdoes most of the QF Angel's best efforts on this site
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Old 28th May 2022, 01:30
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From the outside, the level of Stockholm syndrome justification posting amongst some of these posters outdoes most of the QF Angel's best efforts on this site
Do you believe that if QF started a SH Contractor with pay higher than everybody else but lower than the current SH Contract that they wouldn’t be inundated? Despite all the postulating there are a lot of pilots looking for work at the moment and alot of expats trying to get out of Hong Kong.
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Old 28th May 2022, 02:00
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In reference to expats, it will be interesting when things pick up. Including, unbelievably at the moment, Hong Kong and China. A resurgence of demand for pilots in Asia and a new market in North America is as unprecedented as COVID itself. An offset will be new Australian taxation laws pertaining to expats that I think will make commuting a thing of the past. Many Australian pilots will go back abroad for financial reasons and a little adventure- versus flying jets regionally with an Uber driver like lifestyle.
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Old 28th May 2022, 02:03
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There are also many pilots still not returning to the industry. At least not in a hurry to. Expats will gravitate back to that familiar patch. Some will remain in the reset lifestyle and enjoy it a while longer. Some of those returning are less happy with the crap lifestyle that has become “the norm” and accepted level of fatigue.

Add to this the inevitable health equation. The toll over the last couple of years has been present.
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Old 28th May 2022, 02:45
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Originally Posted by TimmyTee View Post
From the outside, the level of Stockholm syndrome justification posting amongst some of these posters outdoes most of the QF Angel's best efforts on this site
Nailed it.
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Old 28th May 2022, 09:23
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Originally Posted by TimmyTee View Post
From the outside, the level of Stockholm syndrome justification posting amongst some of these posters outdoes most of the QF Angel's best efforts on this site
Agreed. Dr Dre, I sure hope you’re not a QF pilot mate. I respect everyone’s viewpoint, but the own goals must get tiring.
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Old 28th May 2022, 10:26
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Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist View Post
Agreed. Dr Dre, I sure hope you’re not a QF pilot mate. I respect everyone’s viewpoint, but the own goals must get tiring.
That doesn’t sound like you respect his viewpoint at all.

Ill ask again… genuine question because I certainly haven’t seen the actual agreement beyond the dot points in the emails sent by Aipa / QF - can someone describe exactly what is so bad in this variation, that it’s now ‘Stockholm syndrome’ or being a ‘Qantas Angel’ for someone to lean towards a Yes vote?
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Old 28th May 2022, 11:42
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Originally Posted by ExtraShot View Post

Ill ask again… genuine question because I certainly haven’t seen the actual agreement beyond the dot points in the emails sent by Aipa / QF - can someone describe exactly what is so bad in this variation, that it’s now ‘Stockholm syndrome’ or being a ‘Qantas Angel’ for someone to lean towards a Yes vote?
Well unless AIPA can provide some extra info in the document they should be providing next week I couldn’t see many major differences to the current EBA. A process of assigning reserve duties similar to assignment of flying duties is the main change. Otherwise there’s no changes to salary, operate under an FRMS similar to current duty time limits, parts of the RM incorporated into the FRMS, a process to ensure current SH crews in rank and base aren’t displaced as the new aircraft are bought in, some minor changes to the roster bidding process, longer freeze period but only if awarded a slot, if assigned a slot the shorter freeze period applies.

The main angst seems to more general unhappiness at the current state of the company rather than specifics in the proposed variations.

Neither an Angel or Stockholm syndrome here, but interesting as in both the last 2 previous LH EBA votes anyone supporting those deals were also labelled with similar terms, and those deals were voted up with over an 80% Yes vote. Must be a lot of Angels out there.....

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Old 29th May 2022, 00:58
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…...but interesting as in both the last 2 previous LH EBA votes anyone supporting those deals were also labelled with similar terms, and those deals were voted up with over an 80% Yes vote.
Not surprisingly that tends to happen when the threatened alternative is no job.
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Old 29th May 2022, 02:20
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Originally Posted by C441 View Post
Not surprisingly that tends to happen when the threatened alternative is no job.
Was it the threat that lead to it being voted up or enough individual opinions of either 'I can benefit from a promotion' or 'that wont materially affect me anyway' that go it through.

I genuinely dont know the answer, but pilots around here do have a reputation of sorts.
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Old 29th May 2022, 03:24
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Originally Posted by ExtraShot View Post
That doesn’t sound like you respect his viewpoint at all.

Ill ask again… genuine question because I certainly haven’t seen the actual agreement beyond the dot points in the emails sent by Aipa / QF - can someone describe exactly what is so bad in this variation, that it’s now ‘Stockholm syndrome’ or being a ‘Qantas Angel’ for someone to lean towards a Yes vote?
To be clear, I do respect the viewpoint, I just don’t understand it. Everyone is entitled to their view without being threatened / harassed. That doesn’t mean everyone has to agree with it and won’t question it.

No disrespect intended to Dr Dre or anyone else.

After decades of watching pilots ‘racing to the bottom’ through fear campaigns, I do sit and wonder why some think like they do.
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Old 29th May 2022, 03:26
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…”no changes to salary”. Because of a declared pay freeze despite 5+% inflation? Oh, ok then. Variations to awards used to be a two-way street.

Weight and speed also used to be a thing. More revenue generated for the same low low pay wasn’t.
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Old 29th May 2022, 04:11
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No change to BoC ops either?

Last edited by TimmyTee; 29th May 2022 at 04:24.
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Old 29th May 2022, 05:04
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Well unless AIPA can provide some extra info in the document they should be providing next week I couldn’t see many major differences to the current EBA. A process of assigning reserve duties similar to assignment of flying duties is the main change. Otherwise there’s no changes to salary, operate under an FRMS similar to current duty time limits, parts of the RM incorporated into the FRMS, a process to ensure current SH crews in rank and base aren’t displaced as the new aircraft are bought in, some minor changes to the roster bidding process, longer freeze period but only if awarded a slot, if assigned a slot the shorter freeze period applies.

The main angst seems to more general unhappiness at the current state of the company rather than specifics in the proposed variations.

Neither an Angel or Stockholm syndrome here, but interesting as in both the last 2 previous LH EBA votes anyone supporting those deals were also labelled with similar terms, and those deals were voted up with over an 80% Yes vote. Must be a lot of Angels out there.....
For goodness sake, it’s a fleet replacement. They’re bringing in 321s at the start to get their concessions. The rest will be mostly 320s which are a like for like. There’s no increase to total aircraft. Sacrifice conditions to have a fleet replacement is, in my opinion, crazy.

This is Qantas doing what Qantas does - squeezing everything they can out of every opportunity.
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