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Kangaroos and First Nation Peoples Flags

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Kangaroos and First Nation Peoples Flags

Old 30th Jan 2022, 01:32
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
Why not? Go ahead. If you want the “aboriginal” flag up there then also put up the TSI flag. Why not?
Why not.

Multiple examples of carriers sporting multiple flag liveries:







I get what you’re saying. Why not? Perhaps because it’s a flag that represents about 2% of the population, whereas the national flag represents everyone. I realise there are other ways of looking at it.
The whole debate around changing the national flag is there are a lot of people who think the flag does not represent everyone, and that's far more than just Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander people. To me the current flag says those of British/Anglo Saxon descent are considered a little more "Australian" than the rest.

Last edited by dr dre; 30th Jan 2022 at 02:11.
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Old 30th Jan 2022, 02:23
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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Caribbean Airlines displays one National Flag - that of Trinidad and Tobago - and the emblem of the Caribbean Community. Hawaiian Airlines displays one National Flag - that of the United States of America - in the position reserved for that flag and the state flag of Hawaii (notably that state flag includes the Union Jack - the Hawaiian state flag was commissioned by a native Hawaiian, Kamehameha I, and is older than the Australian national flag). Lufthansa displays one National Flag - that of Germany - and the flag of the European Union, an intergovernmental/supranational organisation. Scandinavian Airlines displays stylised national flags of the three airlines that were combined to form it - Det Danske Luftfartselskab (flag carrier of Denmark), Det Norske Luftfartselskap (flag carrier of Norway) and Svensk Interkontinental Lufttrafik (a Swedish airline) - as SAS is the flag carrier for all three Scandinavian countries.
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Old 30th Jan 2022, 02:25
  #143 (permalink)  
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Changing the Aussie flag to include the Aboriginal flag at the Canton would say to Torres Strait islander people that one indigenous heritage is considered more important than the other. It would say to 98% of Aussies that one group of people is a little more Australian than the rest. See how this goes? There is no easy solution to that issue.

Someone who has ancestors stretching back 30,000 years in this county is no more an Aussie than someone like me who’s ancestry dates back to the early 1800s, or someone who became an Aussie four days ago on Australia Day. We are all Aussies and on THAT we should be all equally proud.

I’m OK with uniting behind a symbol that truly WOULD unite us. IE a flag that would see us retire the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander flags also. One flag to represent the entire nation, not continue to seek to divide us into our different ‘tribes’. However I don’t think those advocating for a change to the current flag would be able to achieve that. So until that time I’d prefer to stick with what we have given that for the overwhelming majority of us, that’s the flag that has represented us for all of our lives.
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Old 30th Jan 2022, 03:02
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Keg View Post
Changing the Aussie flag to include the Aboriginal flag at the Canton would say to Torres Strait islander people that one indigenous heritage is considered more important than the other. It would say to 98% of Aussies that one group of people is a little more Australian than the rest. See how this goes?
That's a strawman. Almost all proposals to change the flag do not include replacing the Union Jack with the Aboriginal Flag in the canton. In the "Triple Union Flag" video I posted earlier they explained that clearly. But at least you acknowledge the significance of an emblem in the canton, and how on the current flag it directly signifies the UK nation is in the superior position on the Australian flag, or those of British heritage in Australia are considered more important than non British Australians. Thanks for making my point.

There is no easy solution to that issue.
There's a very easy solution. Get rid of the Union Jack from the Canton. You can then move the Commonwealth star up a bit to the middle of the hoist side and have a minimalist change but remove the error on the flag.

Someone who has ancestors stretching back 30,000 years in this county is no more an Aussie than someone like me who’s ancestry dates back to the early 1800s, or someone who became an Aussie four days ago on Australia Day. We are all Aussies and on THAT we should be all equally proud.
Yep - but current flag says if you're of British heritage you're currently more "equal" than others.

So until that time I’d prefer to stick with what we have given that for the overwhelming majority of us, that’s the flag that has represented us for all of our lives.
Overwhelming majority - becoming less by the day. In the first half of the 20th century, when the flag was designed, 90% of Australia was of Anglo ancestry. Now that's declined to about 60%. Future projections only show Anglo Australians becoming a smaller share of the pie. If we look at the migration statistics for the last FY there was full migration, 18/19 (likely to be in the same proportion when migration resumes soon), 92% of migrants came from somewhere other than the UK. Even if I was generous and included all the immigrants from the other majority Anglo nations in the figure of Anglo migrants, like NZ and USA, it still means 85% of migrants are probably non Anglo ancestry. So in the coming decades Australians of an Anglo Saxon background will be in the minority. It's a statistical inevitability.

And represented all of us? Everyone sees how they are represented by the flag differently. I see within recent years some of the events where Australian flags are prominent amongst crowds are things like the Cronulla Riots or those far right "patriot" rallies. That's not something that represents me, and more often now I see people displaying Australian flags as being associated with the views those groups hold. Now I'll make it clear I'm not saying everyone who flies an Australian flag holds those views, but those views seem more prominent in flag wavers. For instance a survey showed people who fly Australian flags from their cars were twice as likely to hold positive views of the White Australia Policy.

I’m OK with uniting behind a symbol that truly WOULD unite us. IE a flag that would see us retire the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander flags also. One flag to represent the entire nation, not continue to seek to divide us into our different ‘tribes’........ However I don’t think those advocating for a change to the current flag would be able to achieve that.
They managed to do it in Canada a long time back. As far as I can see there's no movement in Canada today to return to the pre 1965 Union Jack flag. Are you saying Australians are more incompetent and less mature than Canadians?
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Old 30th Jan 2022, 03:05
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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Someone who has ancestors stretching back 30,000 years in this county is no more an Aussie than someone like me whoís ancestry dates back to the early 1800s, or someone who became an Aussie four days ago on Australia Day. We are all Aussies and on THAT we should be all equally proud.
Well said, Keg. The problem with so many of these things is that they are inherently divisive. Take something like a Ďwelcome to a countryí. Essentially a nice thing, welcoming someone. Except that it automatically places that person in the position of an outsider, unless youíre welcoming them back home, which is not at all how I see a welcome to country. (Would be a great idea though, if thatís what it could become.) I was born here, as were my parents, their parents, their grandparents and so on. A few of them died in its service. Itís the only home any of us have ever known. Why should I be Ďwelcomedí here as an outsider? Iím not, and nor is someone who became a citizen just the other day. The last Anzac Day ceremony I was at, we were welcomed - to our own homeland - by a lovely young lady who was born here about 30 years after I was. She did a genuinely great job, but something about it didnít sit quite right. Then we have the inevitable acknowledgments of traditional owners, for which thereís a time and a place, but which just gets done to death. At my kidís school graduation, there were - I kid you not - no fewer than FOUR acknowledgments of the traditional owners before they got around to even mentioning the kids. The Ďis, was and always will beí part is meaningless and insincere - after all, the land was taken, concreted over, had a school built on it, and isnít getting handed back any time soon. All the lip service and platitudes do nothing in improving the plight of indigenous people.

I think thereís plenty in indigenous culture for us to learn about and respect, but canít see that divisive, empty gestures, and the elevation of any one group over the rest, are really helping in the long run.
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Old 30th Jan 2022, 03:12
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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Yep - but current flag says if you're of British heritage you're currently more "equal" than others.
Not necessarily, that’s simply your opinion. You could also view it as acknowledging the foundations and institutions of what has turned out to be a remarkably peaceful, prosperous and diverse nation, whatever faults it might have.

I don’t necessarily disagree with what you’re suggesting for a possible future flag. Your Canadian example isn’t directly applicable though, IMHO, given the long-standing and substantial French influence there.
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Old 30th Jan 2022, 04:19
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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Loyalty to flags mostly escapes me.
Recently, the most commonly seen flag in Melbourne was that of Serbia. But not a lot of Serbian flags on Oz day.
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Old 30th Jan 2022, 04:27
  #148 (permalink)  
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The difference Dre is that it’s you who considers the Union Jack to be in a position of privilege and therefore anything that goes in it’s place automatically privileges that replacement. I personally don’t consider the Union Jack to be more important than any other part of the flag

However to me the flag is of secondary importance. It’s something that we look at addressing once we’re firmly convinced that we are all Australian and united in what that means. Once we do away with the exclusionary statement ‘always was, always will be’ and all the other power statements, power flags, power symbols that are intended to divide us only then I’ll be convinced that we can address having a flag that truely does unite us as a nation.

Personally I’d do away with the states and state flags also. I always found the states to something that was only useful when playing state of origin or deciding who I was going to barrack for in the AFL grand final. I didn’t consider my identity as a NSWelshman anything significant at all. Having the states doesn’t bother me for inane and light hearted things like football but when the tribal identity (state, flag, land, power statement, etc) is used as a weapon of control against other Aussies I find that incredibly offensive (to use the lingo of the woke oppressed).

So the discussion about a flag isn’t actually about the flag at all. It’s about identity. If people want to call themselves Aboriginal Australians, or naturalised Australians, or Anglo Aussies, or Vietnamese Australian or even just Aussies (irrespective of their personal heritage) then I’ve no gripe with that as long as they see their primary identity as being an Aussie.

However whilst some hold those ‘descriptors’ as being more important than the ‘Australian’ part then it’s going to be hard to ever have a sensible discussion about being united and deciding on a flag that will unite us all.
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Old 30th Jan 2022, 04:37
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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Far out, if the indigenous want to have smoking ceremonies and welcome to country, whether it was invented last week or 40,000 years ago, let them. If thereís one thing this thread has highlighted, thereís a lot of people with little tolerance, and thereís just as many who think we need to hand everything over to apologise for the last 230 years!

Why donít we just all get along and treat each other equally. Look forwards in writing our future, while acknowledging our past. But donít let the past write the future.

As for the flag, we have one currently, itís called the Australian flag. If everyone (or the majority) feels strongly about adopting another one which acknowledges all parts of our society, then make the noises in the right places.
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Old 30th Jan 2022, 04:56
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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When the United Kingdom disintegrates, losing Scotland and/or Northern Ireland, will the Union Jack currently comprised of the red cross of St George for the Kingdom of England, the white saltire of St Andrew for Scotland and the red saltire of St Patrick to represent Ireland, lose the redundant components?

If it does, will the Australian flag undergo matching changes?


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Old 30th Jan 2022, 05:09
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by morno View Post
Far out, if the indigenous want to have smoking ceremonies and welcome to country, whether it was invented last week or 40,000 years ago, let them.
It's as if they think if they can just prove that smoking ceremonies were invented after white settlement, then they can dismiss them as irrelevant, though I'm not sure if this would be because anything dating to after 1770 should not be taken seriously (hello? the entirety of white Australian history?) or because anything dating to after 1770 by blacks is uppity behaviour against white domination? Neither is an attractive conclusion...

Originally Posted by morno View Post
As for the flag, we have one currently, itís called the Australian flag. If everyone (or the majority) feels strongly about adopting another one which acknowledges all parts of our society, then make the noises in the right places.
Canada changed their flag to a popular and instantly recognisable design 56 years ago and don't seem to obsess about becoming a republic at all (perhaps something to do with their southern neighbours?).
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Old 30th Jan 2022, 05:09
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Keg View Post
The difference Dre is that it’s you who considers the Union Jack to be in a position of privilege and therefore anything that goes in it’s place automatically privileges that replacement. I personally don’t consider the Union Jack to be more important than any other part of the flag
This isn't a matter of differing personal opinions. North American Vexillological Association - the canton is the point of honour on the flag. The Flag Institute - the canton is the most significant part of the flag. Even the current Australian Prime Minister's website - the canton is the position of honour on the flag. The experts are not on your side.

Last edited by dr dre; 30th Jan 2022 at 05:24.
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Old 30th Jan 2022, 05:17
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by nonsense View Post
When the United Kingdom disintegrates, losing Scotland and/or Northern Ireland, will the Union Jack currently comprised of the red cross of St George for the Kingdom of England, the white saltire of St Andrew for Scotland and the red saltire of St Patrick to represent Ireland, lose the redundant components?

If it does, will the Australian flag undergo matching changes?
Who knows? We'll probably look even dumber if we only change our own flag solely in response to another nation changing theirs.

Maybe the best option will be for Australian airlines to follow what some airlines have done, most notably nearby with Air New Zealand, and remove all national flags from their aircraft. It doesn't seem to be an ICAO requirement and would anyone really miss a tiny mark you have to squint to see on the back of the fuselage?

As far as I can tell no one seemed to notice or care when Air NZ dropped the small NZ flag from their aircraft when they changed liveries in 2013.

Last edited by dr dre; 30th Jan 2022 at 05:33.
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Old 30th Jan 2022, 05:36
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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Now the Canadians have a flag that is clean, striking and uniquely identifiable as Canadian
But only if you know what a maple leaf is. It only says "Canada" to someone who already knows about Canada. If the Canadian flag was something else, because I know about Canada, I'd recognize their flag. It's about being educated. That's where I have issues where others say "Our flag doesn't shout Australia". Well unless you put a kangaroo on it, it's unlikely ever to. People not recognizing our flag is not our problem, it's theirs. It's basically advertising. Everyone knows the US flag because it's so in your face all the time, but it doesn't intrinsically show anything "American". Most people probably wouldn't know what any of the items that make it up mean, but they recognize it. I don't know what the flag of Turkmenistan looks like, but I bet that doesn't mean the population of Turkmenistan is all bent out of shape over that fact.
My issue with changing our flag is, a/ tradition etc takes time to build, and we've got 120 years of history invested in it (more or less the same flag), and b/ I've not seen any changes that don't seem to be a sop to some noisy minority in some way or other, or look like they were drawn by a colour-blind pre-schooler.
I actually quite like the Eureka flag as a design, irrespective of its origins, but that has been appropriated by the bogans, and would not solve the recognition of sundry minorities issue. Perhaps the current flag with the Union Jack removed and the Federation star moved to the canton (examples are out there) might be acceptable? Nice and simple, not too big a change.....does look like just another Pacific fly speck one though.
Unfortunately, rather than something that represents us, we just seem to be looking for a flag that doesn't offend anyone, which seems to be the only criteria for most things these days.
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Old 30th Jan 2022, 05:51
  #155 (permalink)  
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we just seem to be looking for a flag that doesn't offend anyone, which seems to be the only criteria for most things these days.
And unfortunately it seems that no matter what changes would be suggested, someone, somewhere, would profess to be offended by them!

Keg; Well said!
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Old 30th Jan 2022, 06:07
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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I'm offended by any oblong shaped object.

I mean to say: "oblong". The word itself is offensive.
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Old 30th Jan 2022, 06:25
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
...
As far as I can tell no one seemed to notice or care when Air NZ dropped the small NZ flag from their aircraft when they changed liveries in 2013.
Air New Zealand had been a bit on again, off again when it came to the New Zealand flag being displayed on their aircraft.

The flag was on the tail of the old Tasman Empire Airways Ltd (TEAL) aircraft between 1954 - 1965. They then dropped it in 1965 when they adopted Air New Zealand into the company name and the flag wasn't reinstated to their livery until 1981. The flag was retained with the adoption of the "Pacific Wave" paint scheme in 1996 before being dropped when they adopted the "Silver Fern" livery in 2013.

Of note with regards to the "Silver Fern" livery was that that was adopted on Christopher Luxon's watch as CEO. Luxon was a vocal advocate at that time for changing the New Zealand flag to Kyle Lockwood's blue, white and black silver fern flag.
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Old 30th Jan 2022, 07:07
  #158 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
This isn't a matter of differing personal opinions. North American Vexillological Association - the canton is the point of honour on the flag. The Flag Institute - the canton is the most significant part of the flag. Even the current Australian Prime Minister's website - the canton is the position of honour on the flag. The experts are not on your side.
Oh, Iím quite aware of the convention surrounding these things. I personally donít view the Aussie flag that way. For me the southern cross and federation star (however redundant it seems to be these days) are equally as important.
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Old 30th Jan 2022, 07:28
  #159 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Proach View Post
The core issue is, when the British came to Australia there were people already living here. It is evident they were here for a very very long time, so long in fact they are considered the first inhabitants of this land or by definition, Aboriginal. There is a flag that represents this fact and is freely available for public use. Considering what it represents it should given sufficient exposure to become readily identified as being associated with Australia. There are Australian aircraft that fly around the nation and overseas, many of these aircraft have a flag painted on their external surface, why not add the Aboriginal flag?
The answer to your last question:
who owns the aircraft; definitely not you. The owners decide what they paint on their aircraft.


So who do you think the “First Nations” people of the United Kingdom are and which flag should British Airways have on their aircraft.?

Last edited by wombat watcher; 30th Jan 2022 at 07:40.
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Old 30th Jan 2022, 07:41
  #160 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by itsnotthatbloodyhard View Post
I think thereís plenty in indigenous culture for us to learn about and respect, but canít see that divisive, empty gestures, and the elevation of any one group over the rest, are really helping in the long run.
nail - head.

Unfortunately thatís too difficult and rather than go and spend time in a community and improve lives, the liberal elite will just chip away at easy victories like flags.

Iíve met many inspirational First Nations people and they are first to admit they are too busy sorting out real issues in their communities to get worked up over which flag QF has on its jets.
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