Network F100 busting minima, Paraburdoo
FIFO miners are frequent flyers, many of them would clock up more hours than management pilots. Four goes at landing would have been noticed, the crew did the right thing in reporting it rather than being called in for an explanation a few days later after the news got back.
The problem lie’s in trying to run according to an ops manual which is more suited to capital city and regional centre operations rather than remote areas with very limited facilities.
Anyone who’s operated in the GAFA knows that the TAFs are all the same for every airport within hundreds of miles. There is a winter one and a summer one, resources go towards the populated areas.
Mining companies are well resourced and having a qualified MET observer on hand for airports with high capacity flights wouldn’t be difficult. In most of the world, an alternate is mandatory and should be seriously considered for remote area ops, rather than relying on a generic forecast being above the alternate minima.
The problem lie’s in trying to run according to an ops manual which is more suited to capital city and regional centre operations rather than remote areas with very limited facilities.
Anyone who’s operated in the GAFA knows that the TAFs are all the same for every airport within hundreds of miles. There is a winter one and a summer one, resources go towards the populated areas.
Mining companies are well resourced and having a qualified MET observer on hand for airports with high capacity flights wouldn’t be difficult. In most of the world, an alternate is mandatory and should be seriously considered for remote area ops, rather than relying on a generic forecast being above the alternate minima.
In most of the world, an alternate is mandatory and should be seriously considered for remote area ops, rather than relying on a generic forecast being above the alternate minima.
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Gina Rinehart and Twiggy Forrest aren’t the problem. The amount they spend on their operations is gobsmacking. I've overnighted at Roy Hill several times. They would do what ever they had to. The problem is a chicken-**** regulator. I was once told in all seriousness by someone who had worked there that they had not mandated alternates at single runway locations in the regs. because in some parts of Australia there wasn’t one available at a reasonable commercial cost ! Brilliant !
In 40 years I know of at least 6 occasions when a single runway has been blocked by a disabled aircraft. If you hadn’t ignored fuel policy and decided to chuck on an extra tonne or so you were in a world of pain. It happens.
Third world. Simple.
In 40 years I know of at least 6 occasions when a single runway has been blocked by a disabled aircraft. If you hadn’t ignored fuel policy and decided to chuck on an extra tonne or so you were in a world of pain. It happens.
Third world. Simple.
Gina Rinehart and Twiggy Forrest aren’t the problem. The amount they spend on their operations is gobsmacking. I've overnighted at Roy Hill several times. They would do what ever they had to. The problem is a chicken-**** regulator. I was once told in all seriousness by someone who had worked there that they had not mandated alternates at single runway locations in the regs. because in some parts of Australia there wasn’t one available at a reasonable commercial cost ! Brilliant !
In 40 years I know of at least 6 occasions when a single runway has been blocked by a disabled aircraft. If you hadn’t ignored fuel policy and decided to chuck on an extra tonne or so you were in a world of pain. It happens.
Third world. Simple.
In 40 years I know of at least 6 occasions when a single runway has been blocked by a disabled aircraft. If you hadn’t ignored fuel policy and decided to chuck on an extra tonne or so you were in a world of pain. It happens.
Third world. Simple.
Its not about how much tax and royalties the mining industry pays, it’s about how much the government, and therefore regulator can get away with not spending backed up by the lack of accidents.
To address a previous post about how can rapid expansion be anything but good, I think Network answers your question. This is one of many incidents on both types that have raised the regulators eyebrows, why else would they suddenly advertise for DEC on the A320? One of the problems with rapid expansion is the low hanging fruit (every airline has them) don't get enough years to get the experience that might make them safe, they go from light A/C to F100 captain in 2 to 3 years, which is fine if they are switched on, but many are not, and again I give you the truckload of incidents at Network, on both fleets, in the last 18 months. Of course part of the issue with the low hanging fruit is that they don't know they are average to below, and when the company pats them on the back for something like this, well that's just scary
How is the culture there? A good culture can nurture up and comers through the early phases.
Perhaps the regulator should grow some balls and halt expansion if they can’t handle it. They did that with Tiger way way back, put a cap on how many aircraft permitted to operate until they could show it could be done safely.
Quick upgrades will always play a part in how things work out over in the West. I’ve sat next to many who have since gone over, reason being nothing other but fast commands. I know they are not ready for it as they asked me for advice/assistance not long after getting the golden seat.
Quick upgrades will always play a part in how things work out over in the West. I’ve sat next to many who have since gone over, reason being nothing other but fast commands. I know they are not ready for it as they asked me for advice/assistance not long after getting the golden seat.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed the TAF forecasts have gone to pot. Over the last 18 odd months even YPPH has had some doozy "CAVOK" forecasts where everyone has then ended up in YBLN/YPKG/etc. I'll be interested to see if the crew got some dud forecasts?
I'll be back in a year or two when the ATSB has finished their investigation.
I'll be back in a year or two when the ATSB has finished their investigation.
Mining companies have safety management systems in place that are comparable to airlines. Companies that provide transport to them are regularly audited by outside specialists.
I doubt they will be waiting for an investigation and action to be taken. I would expect them to look into the incident themselves and have a solution in place well before anything comes out of CASA or the ATSB.
Procedural changes will likely be made and more resources allocated where needed, even if it means beefing up weather reporting and forecasting capability.
Price is always an important factor in FIFO contracts but a high level of safety is rightly demanded by the mining companies and the unions. The big names have deep pockets and would rather spend money on prevention instead of compensation. Being sued by the families of 100+ miners on $150 - 200 000 a year wouldn't be cheap.
I doubt they will be waiting for an investigation and action to be taken. I would expect them to look into the incident themselves and have a solution in place well before anything comes out of CASA or the ATSB.
Procedural changes will likely be made and more resources allocated where needed, even if it means beefing up weather reporting and forecasting capability.
Price is always an important factor in FIFO contracts but a high level of safety is rightly demanded by the mining companies and the unions. The big names have deep pockets and would rather spend money on prevention instead of compensation. Being sued by the families of 100+ miners on $150 - 200 000 a year wouldn't be cheap.
I find the TAF3 worse than the TTF. I wish Oz would keep it simple and just put 2 hours validity on metar and atis like they do in SE Asia. Why confuse things, especially for international crew? I remember a course in Singapore for new training Captains and someone started talking about TTFs. Non Australians were ‘what the hell is she talking about?’. Now we have TAF 3s. Why?
Price is always an important factor in FIFO contracts but a high level of safety is rightly demanded by the mining companies and the unions. The big names have deep pockets and would rather spend money on prevention instead of compensation. Being sued by the families of 100+ miners on $150 - 200 000 a year wouldn't be cheap.
I find the TAF3 worse than the TTF. I wish Oz would keep it simple and just put 2 hours validity on METAR and ATIS like they do in SE Asia. Why confuse things, especially for international crew? I remember a course in Singapore for new training Captains and someone started talking about TTFs. Non Australians were ‘what the hell is she talking about?’. Now we have TAF 3s. Why?
There is one little part of commercial operations that some are forgetting here. The PIC of a commercial charter or RPT operation must be familiar with the local weather patterns and conditions for all ports they operate to. It is not sufficient to say the forecast was wrong continually. Forecasts are educated witchcraft at the best of times and rely on reports from pilots, observers, radar, sattellite imagery and automated stations for accuracy and updating. I really haven't seen much change to forecast accuracy in many years, it's neither better or worse, however the tools for self judgement on the weather and questioning are all still there. When you know the patterns you can see errors, you can ring the MET office and talk with an officer and get their opinion, the forecast may change as a result. I've changed a few TAFs just by being proactive and knowing the local patterns and talking it through with the met office.
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Perhaps the regulator should grow some balls and halt expansion if they can’t handle it. They did that with Tiger way way back, put a cap on how many aircraft permitted to operate until they could show it could be done safely.
Quick upgrades will always play a part in how things work out over in the West. I’ve sat next to many who have since gone over, reason being nothing other but fast commands. I know they are not ready for it as they asked me for advice/assistance not long after getting the golden seat.
Quick upgrades will always play a part in how things work out over in the West. I’ve sat next to many who have since gone over, reason being nothing other but fast commands. I know they are not ready for it as they asked me for advice/assistance not long after getting the golden seat.
TTF was a METAR with trend forecast attached allowing its use for planning up to 3 hours from observation. A METAR is simply what in most cases the automated sensor saw exactly up above it, meaning its significance in isolation means nothing for what will happen in the next 30 minutes let alone 2 hours. All you use a METAR for is to confirm that the TAF is running true, or not.
There is one little part of commercial operations that some are forgetting here. The PIC of a commercial charter or RPT operation must be familiar with the local weather patterns and conditions for all ports they operate to. It is not sufficient to say the forecast was wrong continually. Forecasts are educated witchcraft at the best of times and rely on reports from pilots, observers, radar, sattellite imagery and automated stations for accuracy and updating. I really haven't seen much change to forecast accuracy in many years, it's neither better or worse, however the tools for self judgement on the weather and questioning are all still there. When you know the patterns you can see errors, you can ring the MET office and talk with an officer and get their opinion, the forecast may change as a result. I've changed a few TAFs just by being proactive and knowing the local patterns and talking it through with the met office.
There is one little part of commercial operations that some are forgetting here. The PIC of a commercial charter or RPT operation must be familiar with the local weather patterns and conditions for all ports they operate to. It is not sufficient to say the forecast was wrong continually. Forecasts are educated witchcraft at the best of times and rely on reports from pilots, observers, radar, sattellite imagery and automated stations for accuracy and updating. I really haven't seen much change to forecast accuracy in many years, it's neither better or worse, however the tools for self judgement on the weather and questioning are all still there. When you know the patterns you can see errors, you can ring the MET office and talk with an officer and get their opinion, the forecast may change as a result. I've changed a few TAFs just by being proactive and knowing the local patterns and talking it through with the met office.
Forecasts need to be accurate .
That is why you are taught as a pilot to 'interpret' a forecast. The forecasts should resemble close to whats happening, and its up to the pilot to nut out the nuances.
TTF was a METAR with trend forecast attached allowing its use for planning up to 3 hours from observation. A METAR is simply what in most cases the automated sensor saw exactly up above it, meaning its significance in isolation means nothing for what will happen in the next 30 minutes let alone 2 hours. All you use a METAR for is to confirm that the TAF is running true, or not.
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Yes, that’s very true! In Australia……that’s not the case if you venture beyond our borders. Elsewhere, Atis and metar do have a NOSIG or trend attached that you can use for planning. I understand that this is not practical in the Pilbara as you would need someone there to forecast but ‘TAF 3’? Keep it simple and have a metar with a trend attached….why do we have to be Oztranauts?
TTF was a METAR with trend forecast attached allowing its use for planning up to 3 hours from observation. A METAR is simply what in most cases the automated sensor saw exactly up above it, meaning its significance in isolation means nothing for what will happen in the next 30 minutes let alone 2 hours. All you use a METAR for is to confirm that the TAF is running true, or not.