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Network F100 busting minima, Paraburdoo

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Network F100 busting minima, Paraburdoo

Old 1st Dec 2021, 09:31
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FIFO miners are frequent flyers, many of them would clock up more hours than management pilots. Four goes at landing would have been noticed, the crew did the right thing in reporting it rather than being called in for an explanation a few days later after the news got back.

The problem lie’s in trying to run according to an ops manual which is more suited to capital city and regional centre operations rather than remote areas with very limited facilities.

Anyone who’s operated in the GAFA knows that the TAFs are all the same for every airport within hundreds of miles. There is a winter one and a summer one, resources go towards the populated areas.

Mining companies are well resourced and having a qualified MET observer on hand for airports with high capacity flights wouldn’t be difficult. In most of the world, an alternate is mandatory and should be seriously considered for remote area ops, rather than relying on a generic forecast being above the alternate minima.
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Old 1st Dec 2021, 10:09
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In most of the world, an alternate is mandatory and should be seriously considered for remote area ops, rather than relying on a generic forecast being above the alternate minima.
Broadly speaking it will be in less than 3 hours, albeit with some moderately stringent exceptions.
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Old 1st Dec 2021, 11:35
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Would they normally tanker fuel due fuel price in the bush?
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Old 1st Dec 2021, 11:36
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Gina Rinehart and Twiggy Forrest aren’t the problem. The amount they spend on their operations is gobsmacking. I've overnighted at Roy Hill several times. They would do what ever they had to. The problem is a chicken-shit regulator. I was once told in all seriousness by someone who had worked there that they had not mandated alternates at single runway locations in the regs. because in some parts of Australia there wasn’t one available at a reasonable commercial cost ! Brilliant !
In 40 years I know of at least 6 occasions when a single runway has been blocked by a disabled aircraft. If you hadn’t ignored fuel policy and decided to chuck on an extra tonne or so you were in a world of pain. It happens.
Third world. Simple.
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Old 1st Dec 2021, 11:59
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Originally Posted by Alt Flieger View Post
Gina Rinehart and Twiggy Forrest arenít the problem. The amount they spend on their operations is gobsmacking. I've overnighted at Roy Hill several times. They would do what ever they had to. The problem is a chicken-shit regulator. I was once told in all seriousness by someone who had worked there that they had not mandated alternates at single runway locations in the regs. because in some parts of Australia there wasnít one available at a reasonable commercial cost ! Brilliant !
In 40 years I know of at least 6 occasions when a single runway has been blocked by a disabled aircraft. If you hadnít ignored fuel policy and decided to chuck on an extra tonne or so you were in a world of pain. It happens.
Third world. Simple.
You are exactly correct, the federal and state governments must support the remote aviation infrastructure. Iím sure the mining companies are paying their taxes like all the rest of us to support public infrastructure in their areas of influence.
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Old 2nd Dec 2021, 01:01
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Originally Posted by Duck Pilot View Post
You are exactly correct, the federal and state governments must support the remote aviation infrastructure. Iím sure the mining companies are paying their taxes like all the rest of us to support public infrastructure in their areas of influence.
The issue with our cost focused safety culture is that statistically, nothing happened here, no property was damaged and no lives were lost. It was simply an incident for which the pilots will answerÖno harm no foul in a safety sense. Any claim to the contrary will be met with the ďshow me the hole in the groundĒ reply. Itís as if our safety regulator needs lives to be lost in the interests of safety before they do anything.

Its not about how much tax and royalties the mining industry pays, itís about how much the government, and therefore regulator can get away with not spending backed up by the lack of accidents.
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Old 2nd Dec 2021, 01:44
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Going in for another approach after having done 3 already is like going back into a night club after 3 am , nothing good ever happens !
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Old 2nd Dec 2021, 06:06
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To address a previous post about how can rapid expansion be anything but good, I think Network answers your question. This is one of many incidents on both types that have raised the regulators eyebrows, why else would they suddenly advertise for DEC on the A320? One of the problems with rapid expansion is the low hanging fruit (every airline has them) don't get enough years to get the experience that might make them safe, they go from light A/C to F100 captain in 2 to 3 years, which is fine if they are switched on, but many are not, and again I give you the truckload of incidents at Network, on both fleets, in the last 18 months. Of course part of the issue with the low hanging fruit is that they don't know they are average to below, and when the company pats them on the back for something like this, well that's just scary
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Old 2nd Dec 2021, 07:06
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How is the culture there? A good culture can nurture up and comers through the early phases.
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Old 2nd Dec 2021, 07:44
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Perhaps the regulator should grow some balls and halt expansion if they canít handle it. They did that with Tiger way way back, put a cap on how many aircraft permitted to operate until they could show it could be done safely.

Quick upgrades will always play a part in how things work out over in the West. Iíve sat next to many who have since gone over, reason being nothing other but fast commands. I know they are not ready for it as they asked me for advice/assistance not long after getting the golden seat.
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Old 2nd Dec 2021, 07:59
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I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed the TAF forecasts have gone to pot. Over the last 18 odd months even YPPH has had some doozy "CAVOK" forecasts where everyone has then ended up in YBLN/YPKG/etc. I'll be interested to see if the crew got some dud forecasts?

I'll be back in a year or two when the ATSB has finished their investigation.
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Old 2nd Dec 2021, 08:26
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Mining companies have safety management systems in place that are comparable to airlines. Companies that provide transport to them are regularly audited by outside specialists.

I doubt they will be waiting for an investigation and action to be taken. I would expect them to look into the incident themselves and have a solution in place well before anything comes out of CASA or the ATSB.

Procedural changes will likely be made and more resources allocated where needed, even if it means beefing up weather reporting and forecasting capability.

Price is always an important factor in FIFO contracts but a high level of safety is rightly demanded by the mining companies and the unions. The big names have deep pockets and would rather spend money on prevention instead of compensation. Being sued by the families of 100+ miners on $150 - 200 000 a year wouldn't be cheap.
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Old 2nd Dec 2021, 09:36
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I find the TAF3 worse than the TTF. I wish Oz would keep it simple and just put 2 hours validity on metar and atis like they do in SE Asia. Why confuse things, especially for international crew? I remember a course in Singapore for new training Captains and someone started talking about TTFs. Non Australians were ‘what the hell is she talking about?’. Now we have TAF 3s. Why?
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Old 2nd Dec 2021, 09:42
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Price is always an important factor in FIFO contracts but a high level of safety is rightly demanded by the mining companies and the unions. The big names have deep pockets and would rather spend money on prevention instead of compensation. Being sued by the families of 100+ miners on $150 - 200 000 a year wouldn't be cheap.
Well if that is true why do they all fly around in 30-40 year old aircraft then if it's all about safety?? Why is everything always outsourced and not in mainline?? You can't argue that it is because it's safer to use a contractor. Nothing will come of this like nothing came of the overrun they had a while back because they're too cheap. It will all continue as it is so long as they don't have some sort of major accident or fatality.
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Old 2nd Dec 2021, 09:57
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I find the TAF3 worse than the TTF. I wish Oz would keep it simple and just put 2 hours validity on METAR and ATIS like they do in SE Asia. Why confuse things, especially for international crew? I remember a course in Singapore for new training Captains and someone started talking about TTFs. Non Australians were ‘what the hell is she talking about?’. Now we have TAF 3s. Why?
TTF was a METAR with trend forecast attached allowing its use for planning up to 3 hours from observation. A METAR is simply what in most cases the automated sensor saw exactly up above it, meaning its significance in isolation means nothing for what will happen in the next 30 minutes let alone 2 hours. All you use a METAR for is to confirm that the TAF is running true, or not.

There is one little part of commercial operations that some are forgetting here. The PIC of a commercial charter or RPT operation must be familiar with the local weather patterns and conditions for all ports they operate to. It is not sufficient to say the forecast was wrong continually. Forecasts are educated witchcraft at the best of times and rely on reports from pilots, observers, radar, sattellite imagery and automated stations for accuracy and updating. I really haven't seen much change to forecast accuracy in many years, it's neither better or worse, however the tools for self judgement on the weather and questioning are all still there. When you know the patterns you can see errors, you can ring the MET office and talk with an officer and get their opinion, the forecast may change as a result. I've changed a few TAFs just by being proactive and knowing the local patterns and talking it through with the met office.
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Old 2nd Dec 2021, 10:02
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Originally Posted by PoppaJo View Post
Perhaps the regulator should grow some balls and halt expansion if they canít handle it. They did that with Tiger way way back, put a cap on how many aircraft permitted to operate until they could show it could be done safely.

Quick upgrades will always play a part in how things work out over in the West. Iíve sat next to many who have since gone over, reason being nothing other but fast commands. I know they are not ready for it as they asked me for advice/assistance not long after getting the golden seat.
Donít always blame the regulator, who sometimes has to appease regional airlines with significant political influence who donít want to carry around additional alternate fuel , and therefore hijack the consultation process. Hypothetically speakingÖ
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Old 2nd Dec 2021, 10:28
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Originally Posted by 43Inches View Post
TTF was a METAR with trend forecast attached allowing its use for planning up to 3 hours from observation. A METAR is simply what in most cases the automated sensor saw exactly up above it, meaning its significance in isolation means nothing for what will happen in the next 30 minutes let alone 2 hours. All you use a METAR for is to confirm that the TAF is running true, or not.

There is one little part of commercial operations that some are forgetting here. The PIC of a commercial charter or RPT operation must be familiar with the local weather patterns and conditions for all ports they operate to. It is not sufficient to say the forecast was wrong continually. Forecasts are educated witchcraft at the best of times and rely on reports from pilots, observers, radar, sattellite imagery and automated stations for accuracy and updating. I really haven't seen much change to forecast accuracy in many years, it's neither better or worse, however the tools for self judgement on the weather and questioning are all still there. When you know the patterns you can see errors, you can ring the MET office and talk with an officer and get their opinion, the forecast may change as a result. I've changed a few TAFs just by being proactive and knowing the local patterns and talking it through with the met office.
How many times will the chief pilot look the other way when I load extra 5T for WX thatís not on the TAF ? Forecasts need to be accurate .
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Old 2nd Dec 2021, 10:35
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Forecasts need to be accurate .
The very nature of the beast is that there can be no 100% accuracy, you can just have a range of acceptable outcomes. That is you will either complain it's overly conservative and always carrying alternate fuel, or not conservative and they are missing things that actually occur. Somewhere in the middle is where forecasting sits.

That is why you are taught as a pilot to 'interpret' a forecast. The forecasts should resemble close to whats happening, and its up to the pilot to nut out the nuances.
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Old 2nd Dec 2021, 12:16
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Originally Posted by 43Inches View Post
TTF was a METAR with trend forecast attached allowing its use for planning up to 3 hours from observation. A METAR is simply what in most cases the automated sensor saw exactly up above it, meaning its significance in isolation means nothing for what will happen in the next 30 minutes let alone 2 hours. All you use a METAR for is to confirm that the TAF is running true, or not.
Outside the aviation bubble that is Australia, METARs are often appended with a trend, valid for two hours after the observation. They're still labeled 'METAR', but they're a trend forecast.
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Old 2nd Dec 2021, 12:45
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[QUOTE]
Originally Posted by 43Inches View Post
TTF was a METAR with trend forecast attached allowing its use for planning up to 3 hours from observation. A METAR is simply what in most cases the automated sensor saw exactly up above it, meaning its significance in isolation means nothing for what will happen in the next 30 minutes let alone 2 hours. All you use a METAR for is to confirm that the TAF is running true, or not.
Yes, that’s very true! In Australia……that’s not the case if you venture beyond our borders. Elsewhere, Atis and metar do have a NOSIG or trend attached that you can use for planning. I understand that this is not practical in the Pilbara as you would need someone there to forecast but ‘TAF 3’? Keep it simple and have a metar with a trend attached….why do we have to be Oztranauts?
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