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Positive rate....gear up

Old 23rd Jul 2021, 10:58
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This is what's wrong with general aviation in Australia. All the pilots flying around without a proper understanding of the performance of the aircraft they're flying, or the purpose of checklist items and how to identify if the item is satisfied.

Wouldn't happen in airline operations. All those rules and surveillance by the regulator.
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Old 23rd Jul 2021, 11:26
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At least they had enough fuel this time.
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...r/ao-2021-002/

Checklist response, “up, no lights.” What exactly was checked before providing the response?
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Old 23rd Jul 2021, 11:31
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Snoop

Checklist response, “up, no lights.” What exactly was checked before providing the response?[/QUOTE]

Mobile phone reception and facebook likes?

MCD
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Old 23rd Jul 2021, 11:42
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Gents, I hate to spoil the party, but I think you'll find its someone else's job to look at the circumstances and mitigating factors when they're presented to them. Not ours.
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Old 23rd Jul 2021, 11:45
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Look, Learn and move on. If you think it couldn't be you................
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Old 23rd Jul 2021, 11:56
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I forgot to retract the gear in a light twin. Was an early morning departure, and wasn’t feeling my sharpest. It’s amazing how strong confirmation bias can be when you’re convinced you’ve carried out the action. Tower noticed and notified approach, then notified me.
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Old 23rd Jul 2021, 12:33
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I think its easier ( and more common) than most realise to miss a task such as gear retraction. A distraction just at the right time is enough. Standard callouts / responses to checklists are all too often spoken without the appropriate confirmation.

Humans are not great at identifying errors in common tasks. We usually do better at solving unusual problems, which is why we still have a job!
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Old 23rd Jul 2021, 12:54
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Originally Posted by Ollie Onion View Post
It happens, I ift. Also investigated a engine out departure in the UK were the Gear was left down until the crew noticed a ‘reduced’ climb performance after acceleration. We are all capable of doing these things.
wasn’t out of east mids was it?
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Old 23rd Jul 2021, 13:10
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Originally Posted by MickG0105 View Post
What would the noise be like fanging along with the gear still down?
I ferried one once back to Sydney from an outstation with the gear down. I don't recall the noise too much as we had good noise cancelling headsets, but it was fairly rough, like driving on a dirt road it just shakes a whole lot once you get a little speed up.
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Old 23rd Jul 2021, 13:22
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Originally Posted by rmcdonal View Post
I ferried one once back to Sydney from an outstation with the gear down. I don't recall the noise too much as we had good noise cancelling headsets, but it was fairly rough, like driving on a dirt road it just shakes a whole lot once you get a little speed up.
Thank you for that. Being pegged to Vle would have made for a somewhat longer trip I'm guessing.

Last edited by MickG0105; 23rd Jul 2021 at 13:24. Reason: Typo
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Old 23rd Jul 2021, 14:11
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It happened to me
The alternator tripped off and the hydraulic pump couldn't manage getting the gear up on battery. Also the alternator warning light was not working. We were wondering why the plane was so slow until we did some checking. Moving the gear handle up only managed to budge the gear just enough to have the green lights go out.
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Old 23rd Jul 2021, 15:26
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I'll put my hand up for missing it on a go around in the sim. Multiple distractions at the GA, complex GA procedure, no Positive Climb call from PM. Wondering why it wasn't climbing well once things calmed down. D'Oh..... Lesson learnt.
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Old 23rd Jul 2021, 20:20
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Yep, I did something similar a few months ago with the flap. Neither of us super current, early morning, distracted by an ATC call.
Confirmation bias convinced us both they were up with the checklist, a moment later during a moment of quiet on the radio, good look around, there they were, still at take off position. Fortunately, no overspeed, raised them up... and took things carefully from then on.
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Old 23rd Jul 2021, 22:27
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Originally Posted by TukwillaFlyboy View Post
Standard Boeing call is “positive rate”
no not really ! Do you know why ?
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Old 23rd Jul 2021, 22:45
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Is it not the responsibility of the flight crew member doing the walk around to ensure all the gear pins have been removed?
In most airlines it's a joint responsibility between the pilot and the engineer to ensure the pins are removed before departure. However I would suggest that very few pilots would actually physically pull the pins out as this would (arguably) be a breach of an SoPs that prevent the pins being pulled by other than an engineer when they are actually required to be installed (eg. for maintenance action).

I haven't read the report closely, but I'm sure fatigue would be considered as a factor. It doesn't have to be the middle of the night to be fatigued…...
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Old 23rd Jul 2021, 23:12
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Posts 25, 27 and 31 are noteworthy, plus one or two others , otherwise I fear for the future of so called professional aviators ! Only my personal opinion of course.
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Old 24th Jul 2021, 00:13
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Tukwilla - Thanks for that, but I did know that. I was attempting to be this thing called "humorous". (By the way it wasn't a Boeing aircraft).
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Old 24th Jul 2021, 09:26
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“Positive rate”, so much better at rolling off the tongue than “Positive climb”. And as for “Light off” rather than “Light up”! 😡

Anyway, surely the ‘crime’ here was not checking the gear was Up in the After Take-off check, not the fact that it wasn’t initially selected Up.
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Old 24th Jul 2021, 09:31
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Originally Posted by Capn Rex Havoc View Post
Tukwilla - Thanks for that, but I did know that. I was attempting to be this thing called "humorous". (By the way it wasn't a Boeing aircraft).
My memory is that Boeing did own De Havilland for a while.
Either way , there has been an effort to standardise calls across the group.
Makes it easier when Pilots move across.
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Old 24th Jul 2021, 12:24
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I'm obviously not worthy of being in the company of the Gods on this forum, as I too have missed putting the gear up.

It was a long time ago, so the details and systems knowledge are no longer as clear as they once were. I do remember it was the first flight of the day after a min rest overnight, with a 0630 departure. Also that it was day four or five of multi sector days. I was PM, and as the captain called for gear up I got distracted by the master warning. I had forgotten to turn off the APU after start (we usually use ground power) and the APU wasn't certified for use in flight. So I cancelled the warning and shut down the APU, forgetting all about the gear. Fortunately I picked it up in the checklist.

As for the noise, compared to those props, it was nothing. The aircraft I'm on now has you to leaving the gear down after takeoff if there is a brake deactivated. For those couple of minutes we keep the speed to around 220/230 kts because it is LOUD!

​​​​​​Mistakes happen.

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