RPT Jet pilots - Visual approach stuff
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RPT Jet pilots - Visual approach stuff
Howdy all,
Had an interesting conversation with a jet pilot the other morning about Visual Approach procedures at night. The pilot called visual at 32 miles with an assigned altitude of 3000ft and was issued a VSA at 28 miles. The pilot asked if he could "track via a 5 mile final" which the controller answered "afirm". Next thing the pilot asks for futher descent as, according to him, the procedure ATC cleared him by left him at 3000ft until 5 miles from touchdown. The ATC gave him the radar LSALT (after some harsh words by the acft: we need the LSALT now!!!) and the acft subsequently performed the VSA.
My question is, if the acft was under its own nav (tracking via a 5 mile final) even at night, why should a VSA restrict the descent of a jet? Is this just a company thing? I questioned this and said if you were under RADAR VECTORS then yes, you would have to be assigned the radar lowest safe, but as you were under your own nav, you can descend in accordance with AIP. AIP stated that IFR at night can get a VSA at night inside 30NM, and that the pilot should maintain 500ft above the base of CTA and the descend in accordance with the DME/GPS plates until within 5NM of the runway (ie, no restriction on descent).
I just want to get this clear in my head what you jet type pilots think: what would you do when issued a VSA approach at night from 28NM previously assigned 3000ft with no vectoring? I just didn't like the pilot's attitude, and I quote, "I am right, you are wrong, and will be putting paperwork in through my company." This is not the best way to discuss procedures.
Looking for some input from jet pilots. Why would they say this and do this? I think the controller was correct but hell, what can you do except nod politely and say, "Yes captain"
And the games begin....
Cheers, NFR.
Had an interesting conversation with a jet pilot the other morning about Visual Approach procedures at night. The pilot called visual at 32 miles with an assigned altitude of 3000ft and was issued a VSA at 28 miles. The pilot asked if he could "track via a 5 mile final" which the controller answered "afirm". Next thing the pilot asks for futher descent as, according to him, the procedure ATC cleared him by left him at 3000ft until 5 miles from touchdown. The ATC gave him the radar LSALT (after some harsh words by the acft: we need the LSALT now!!!) and the acft subsequently performed the VSA.
My question is, if the acft was under its own nav (tracking via a 5 mile final) even at night, why should a VSA restrict the descent of a jet? Is this just a company thing? I questioned this and said if you were under RADAR VECTORS then yes, you would have to be assigned the radar lowest safe, but as you were under your own nav, you can descend in accordance with AIP. AIP stated that IFR at night can get a VSA at night inside 30NM, and that the pilot should maintain 500ft above the base of CTA and the descend in accordance with the DME/GPS plates until within 5NM of the runway (ie, no restriction on descent).
I just want to get this clear in my head what you jet type pilots think: what would you do when issued a VSA approach at night from 28NM previously assigned 3000ft with no vectoring? I just didn't like the pilot's attitude, and I quote, "I am right, you are wrong, and will be putting paperwork in through my company." This is not the best way to discuss procedures.
Looking for some input from jet pilots. Why would they say this and do this? I think the controller was correct but hell, what can you do except nod politely and say, "Yes captain"
And the games begin....
Cheers, NFR.
Nunc est bibendum
NFR, the type of aircraft would be handy here as would the airport concerned.
Visual approach at night. Maintain not below the LSALT or RAD LSALT if assigned until established in the circling area. From 3000' he would be after about ten track miles to tpuchdown I'd think.
The problem with requesting a five mile final is that you are then sweating on 5.28 nm to get within the circling area to get down. A five mile final gives you about .3 of a nm to be within the circling area and down to the Cat D circling minima. If you go for a 3 mile final, you get within the circling area a lot further across base and can then fly an oblique base leg to get onto final.
Melbourne from the west for a visual onto 34 is one of the interesting ones. Last RAD LSALT can mean that you may get caught in the situation above (I think, can't remember for sure as it's been ages since I've done that one).
Have to be honest though and say that I haven't seen the DME steps plate pulled out much by any of the blokes I fly with and certainly don't recall briefing it or being briefed on it as part of the information available for a visual approach although I'll certainly keep it in the back of my mind from now on!
The point that I should follow on from that is that most blokes just don't call visual at night from 30 miles. Rather, they wait for what they know is the RAD LSALT and then call it. The logic there is that ATC will/should keep you above the steps and terrain and all we need to do is check it. Calling visual early means that all of a sudden it transfers the workload and responsibility to the crew. I know which I prefer workload wise!!
Hope that helps NFR. Either it was a Virgin a/c or you're incredibly polite. If it was QF, it seems to me that most people sink the boot in!
Visual approach at night. Maintain not below the LSALT or RAD LSALT if assigned until established in the circling area. From 3000' he would be after about ten track miles to tpuchdown I'd think.
The problem with requesting a five mile final is that you are then sweating on 5.28 nm to get within the circling area to get down. A five mile final gives you about .3 of a nm to be within the circling area and down to the Cat D circling minima. If you go for a 3 mile final, you get within the circling area a lot further across base and can then fly an oblique base leg to get onto final.
Melbourne from the west for a visual onto 34 is one of the interesting ones. Last RAD LSALT can mean that you may get caught in the situation above (I think, can't remember for sure as it's been ages since I've done that one).
Have to be honest though and say that I haven't seen the DME steps plate pulled out much by any of the blokes I fly with and certainly don't recall briefing it or being briefed on it as part of the information available for a visual approach although I'll certainly keep it in the back of my mind from now on!
The point that I should follow on from that is that most blokes just don't call visual at night from 30 miles. Rather, they wait for what they know is the RAD LSALT and then call it. The logic there is that ATC will/should keep you above the steps and terrain and all we need to do is check it. Calling visual early means that all of a sudden it transfers the workload and responsibility to the crew. I know which I prefer workload wise!!
Hope that helps NFR. Either it was a Virgin a/c or you're incredibly polite. If it was QF, it seems to me that most people sink the boot in!
Last edited by Keg; 21st Aug 2002 at 15:46.
NFR,
Oh what a topic this is! So simple and yet we still have morons who have the audacity to berate ATC. Keg is correct: if you call "Visual" at 30nm you're a bloody idiot, since ATC is quite within their rights to say, "OK, you go for it laddie, I'm off out for a cup of tea" and leave you at the last assigned altitude.
Unless the pilot intends pulling out the DME Arrival chart (useless at some places because it's way too high to do a Straight-In) or join the circuit area for a three-legger or just happen to be on the LLZ, we really have no option but to keep getting radar descents until you CAN do a Visual Approach from the last height ATC assigned.
If the pilots in this case berated ATC, they (the pilots) need a good kick up the tail because they don't know what they are doing. It's not ATC's fault.
"Very shabby stuff, Bloggs!"
Oh what a topic this is! So simple and yet we still have morons who have the audacity to berate ATC. Keg is correct: if you call "Visual" at 30nm you're a bloody idiot, since ATC is quite within their rights to say, "OK, you go for it laddie, I'm off out for a cup of tea" and leave you at the last assigned altitude.
Unless the pilot intends pulling out the DME Arrival chart (useless at some places because it's way too high to do a Straight-In) or join the circuit area for a three-legger or just happen to be on the LLZ, we really have no option but to keep getting radar descents until you CAN do a Visual Approach from the last height ATC assigned.
If the pilots in this case berated ATC, they (the pilots) need a good kick up the tail because they don't know what they are doing. It's not ATC's fault.
"Very shabby stuff, Bloggs!"
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
A "DME arrival"..sorry, what's that?
Obviously something peculiar to Oz!
The MSA will probably be more useful and allow a little more latitude until within 5nm of the aerodrome where 1500' AGL is recognised as the usual minimum circuit altitude (subject to "left/right circuit patterns only by night").
However, it is my understanding that IFR ops must cancel their IFR category, and declare VFR to take advantage of this - which is NOT permitted for operations other than PVT or AWK!!
In other words, IFR commercial ops MUST carry out an instrument approach at night, regardless of meteorological conditions.
Obviously something peculiar to Oz!
The MSA will probably be more useful and allow a little more latitude until within 5nm of the aerodrome where 1500' AGL is recognised as the usual minimum circuit altitude (subject to "left/right circuit patterns only by night").
However, it is my understanding that IFR ops must cancel their IFR category, and declare VFR to take advantage of this - which is NOT permitted for operations other than PVT or AWK!!
In other words, IFR commercial ops MUST carry out an instrument approach at night, regardless of meteorological conditions.
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Been a while since I flew in Oz but thought it went something like this :
Maintain LSALT until
1. Established in the circling area or
2. Within 10 nm within half scale deflection of the localiser and on the glide path or
3. Established on the VASIS within 5 nm and aligned with the runway centreline.
Anyone care to quote the book?
Maintain LSALT until
1. Established in the circling area or
2. Within 10 nm within half scale deflection of the localiser and on the glide path or
3. Established on the VASIS within 5 nm and aligned with the runway centreline.
Anyone care to quote the book?
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Further info...
It is all becoming pretty clear now.
Kaptin M - sorry, but the book says that IFR and VFR can do a VSA at night. And a DME arrival is a step down procedure based on DME distances from the field established in published quadrants.
Keg - thanks for the response. I don't like to 'put the boot in' to companies in general - the individuals concered, yes, but they are not the whole company. BTW the event was a B763 ariving RWY11 at YPDN from the west, so no need for base and downwind legs.
Coral - you are correct with your quotes and I am glad that I am reading it correctly. What you say about companies' SOPs not allowing DME step down as part of the VSA procedure interests me. I thought by the way the pilot was speaking it sounded like a company thing, and now I am sure. This situation of ATC and the books quite rightly saying one thing, and company SOPs saying another is obviously confusing everyone. I hope this individual concered does go to the company and finds out the discrepancy. What do you think the reaction will be?
Capn Bloggs - couldn't agree with you more.
Looking forward to some more interesting inputs
Cheers,
NFR
Kaptin M - sorry, but the book says that IFR and VFR can do a VSA at night. And a DME arrival is a step down procedure based on DME distances from the field established in published quadrants.
Keg - thanks for the response. I don't like to 'put the boot in' to companies in general - the individuals concered, yes, but they are not the whole company. BTW the event was a B763 ariving RWY11 at YPDN from the west, so no need for base and downwind legs.
Coral - you are correct with your quotes and I am glad that I am reading it correctly. What you say about companies' SOPs not allowing DME step down as part of the VSA procedure interests me. I thought by the way the pilot was speaking it sounded like a company thing, and now I am sure. This situation of ATC and the books quite rightly saying one thing, and company SOPs saying another is obviously confusing everyone. I hope this individual concered does go to the company and finds out the discrepancy. What do you think the reaction will be?
Capn Bloggs - couldn't agree with you more.
Looking forward to some more interesting inputs
Cheers,
NFR
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During a visual approach at night you have to maintain your last assigned radar altitude until established inside the circling area or 5 miles not below the vasis.
This incident appears to have occurred at night onto runway 11 in DN,there are other requirements for an arrival onto a ILS equiped runway that allow you to descend earlier AIP 1.1-17/18 cover these (Remember this is in Controlled Airspace).Being cleared to a 5nm final does not mean you are no longer under radar control unless the controller states "Radar services terminated", how often have you been widened out in say ML after being cleared to the OM(5nm final for non locals).In this case the A/C should have been cleared to 1600ft at 18DME.
This problem occurs occasionally at other ports as well.Visual approach requirements are a bone of contention and are often miss understood by both pilots and controllers.In this case the pilot concerned is correct. As for accepting a visual approach at 30 miles,why not ,no hills, probably good wx this time of year.
This incident appears to have occurred at night onto runway 11 in DN,there are other requirements for an arrival onto a ILS equiped runway that allow you to descend earlier AIP 1.1-17/18 cover these (Remember this is in Controlled Airspace).Being cleared to a 5nm final does not mean you are no longer under radar control unless the controller states "Radar services terminated", how often have you been widened out in say ML after being cleared to the OM(5nm final for non locals).In this case the A/C should have been cleared to 1600ft at 18DME.
This problem occurs occasionally at other ports as well.Visual approach requirements are a bone of contention and are often miss understood by both pilots and controllers.In this case the pilot concerned is correct. As for accepting a visual approach at 30 miles,why not ,no hills, probably good wx this time of year.
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Nah mate.....
Mr Albatross. I think the controller was correct. Have a good read of AIP (not company SOPs) and you will see, as I and Coral have stated, that you can continue below the last assigned level when conducting a VSA under own navigation.
I ask you why you think the acft should be assigned further descent when it was already cleared for a VSA? AIP clearly states that you can descend in accordance with the DME steps until within 5NM/circling area. The DME step in this instance is actually lower than the radar lowest safe and hence would have been better for the said acft and its descent!
Also, there is a difference between being under radar control and radar vectors - radar control is monitoring acft on the screen, where as radar vectroing means ATC assumes navigation responsibility for the acft. Asking to TRACK to a 5 mile final is a pilot (or FMS) navigation function - it is not vectoring and hence they are still under "own navigation".
Cheers,
NFR.
--(by night) maintain an altitude not less than the route segment LSALT/MSA or appropriate step of DME/GPS arrival procedure or 500FT ABV the LL of CTA if this is higher, until within prescribed circling area and AD in sight, or within 5NM of AD (7NM for ILS equipped RWY) aligned with CL and established VASI/PAPI. (ref: AIP ENR 1.1 -17 / 9.5.5)
Also, there is a difference between being under radar control and radar vectors - radar control is monitoring acft on the screen, where as radar vectroing means ATC assumes navigation responsibility for the acft. Asking to TRACK to a 5 mile final is a pilot (or FMS) navigation function - it is not vectoring and hence they are still under "own navigation".
Cheers,
NFR.
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Used to get this problem going into Perth all the time, especially after doing a star onto RW03 and then the visual procedure which puts you on a 5 mile final via a wide left base, ATC descend you to the Radar LSA at around 10 miles which was about 2600' or so, and then clear you for a visual approach which effectively left you at 2600' for a 5 mile final, since the MSA is 3000'.
I don't agree calling Visual at 28 miles makes you a " bloody idiot" although for other reasons it sounds like this paticular individual was. One could argue that ATC should know " the simple" Visual approach procedures and not leave us high and dry.
I don't agree calling Visual at 28 miles makes you a " bloody idiot" although for other reasons it sounds like this paticular individual was. One could argue that ATC should know " the simple" Visual approach procedures and not leave us high and dry.
Nunc est bibendum
NFR, I'd agree with you on the Darwin issue. I've come across it a couple of times myself. Each time we have waited for the 1600' altitude before declaring visual.
I think that the bit about DME steps isn't 'remembered' well in QF- not that it isn't known, just that we rarely come up against it in practicality as there are normally other more 'limiting' altitudes.
I think your post is a handy little reminder. The 767 Fleet manager is Captain Dick Tobiano and you can get him at [email protected] . I'm sure it wouldn't take much for him to put a friendly 'reminder' about issues discussed above in the next fleet newsletter.
I think that the bit about DME steps isn't 'remembered' well in QF- not that it isn't known, just that we rarely come up against it in practicality as there are normally other more 'limiting' altitudes.
I think your post is a handy little reminder. The 767 Fleet manager is Captain Dick Tobiano and you can get him at [email protected] . I'm sure it wouldn't take much for him to put a friendly 'reminder' about issues discussed above in the next fleet newsletter.
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It's not a problem in Darwin. The AIP says:
--(by night) maintain an altitude not less than the route segment LSALT/MSA or appropriate step of DME/GPS arrival procedure or 500FT
Thus when cleared for a visual at night, and within 25nm you can descend to the MSA (1600' in Darwin). This ties in nicely with the 5.28 NM circling area. 1600' with about 5nm to run --- perfect.
--(by night) maintain an altitude not less than the route segment LSALT/MSA or appropriate step of DME/GPS arrival procedure or 500FT
Thus when cleared for a visual at night, and within 25nm you can descend to the MSA (1600' in Darwin). This ties in nicely with the 5.28 NM circling area. 1600' with about 5nm to run --- perfect.
Bottums Up
A number of points spring to mind.[list=1][*]AIP (Jepp AU-705, para 1.7.5.7) requires a pilot wishing a visual approach AND satisfied that the conditions at Jepp 1.7.5.1 exist, MUST report visual. (ie. continuous visual ref to grnd or water, not lesss than 5000m viz, within 30 nm or if being vectored has been assigned the minimum radar LSALT and given heading to intercept final or position the aircraft within 5nm of the aerodrome).[*]From Jepp AU-7 (Definitions & Abbreviations) VISUAL from a pilot means,
[*]There is no proscribed distance at which the call of "Visual" shall be made, therefore I don't agree that calling visual at 32 nm is stupid.[*]The CTR boundary to the West of Darwin (approach for RWY11) is aprox 18 DME, this should give ample opportunity to descend from 3000 for a straight in approach.[/list=1]
My guess is that either, the pilot did not fully understand the descent criteria (Jepp AU-705, 1.7.5.5) for a Visual Approach, or, perhaps after gaining clearance to track for a 5 mile final, was uncertain if that clearance voided the Visual Approach clearance.
NFR, to answer your question, I'd descend to the MSA, remaining at or above the CTA LL +500' as I followed the cleared track, until at 5 nm established on the VASIS and aligned with the RWY C/L.
My question to you is, what is a VSA? Visual Straight-in Approach, Visual Sector Approach, ....?
Used by a pilot to indicate acceptance of responsibility to see and avoid obstacles while operating below the MVA or MSA/LSALT.
My guess is that either, the pilot did not fully understand the descent criteria (Jepp AU-705, 1.7.5.5) for a Visual Approach, or, perhaps after gaining clearance to track for a 5 mile final, was uncertain if that clearance voided the Visual Approach clearance.
NFR, to answer your question, I'd descend to the MSA, remaining at or above the CTA LL +500' as I followed the cleared track, until at 5 nm established on the VASIS and aligned with the RWY C/L.
My question to you is, what is a VSA? Visual Straight-in Approach, Visual Sector Approach, ....?
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A VSA or DME arrival is a descent clearance to the runway threshold. The procedure by which the pilot of the aircraft gets there is then up to him/her, in accord with layed down procedure. If the circumstances mentioned jack the aircraft up to 3000 feet until a 5nm final that is the pilots fault for not being awake to a restriction in the procedure that does not suit the aircraft or whatever. If I wanted to be on a 5nm final at a lower altitude than 3000ft, I would ask for vectors to intercept final by 5 miles, alternatively, radar monitoring until on final. Is there something here I cannot see? Seems rather simple to me.
Claret,
What about the bit before MUST? It says, "a pilot who desires a visual approach..." so you DON'T have to report Visual until you "desire" to do a visual approach, which obviously would be a damn-site les than 30nm. If we're quoting the books, let's have the whole quote, and nothing but the whole quote. The devil is in the detail! Of course, IF you want to eventually do a 5nm final, why not ask for "direct to 5nm final" (or a vector there), THEN call Visual later on, when you're ready?
Bushpig,
It is simple. ATC have NO obligation to continue assigning you lower altitudes AFTER you've called Visual, for obvious reasons: you've just accepted responsibility for the approach! So, it's simple: DON'T accept a Visual approach (or call Visual), until you are at, or have been assigned, an altitude that is OK for your type's profile and performance to do a visual landing without busting all the various altitude requirements.
I'm with Stupid:
This generally doesn't happen much these days: the controllers know what we need (we've trained them). But as I have said above, don't call Visual until they assign you the lowest Radar Lowest Safe so you CAN do a reasonably under-control 5nm final.
Kaptin M,
A few of your posts have been a bit sus lately: now I know why! You ain't an Oz dweller are you??!! "What's a DME Arrival?" You've gotta be joking! It's just another example of how Oz aviation is streets ahead of the rest of the world in efficiency, much to the chagrin and annoyance of AOPA, Dick Smith and the rat brigade.
What about the bit before MUST? It says, "a pilot who desires a visual approach..." so you DON'T have to report Visual until you "desire" to do a visual approach, which obviously would be a damn-site les than 30nm. If we're quoting the books, let's have the whole quote, and nothing but the whole quote. The devil is in the detail! Of course, IF you want to eventually do a 5nm final, why not ask for "direct to 5nm final" (or a vector there), THEN call Visual later on, when you're ready?
Bushpig,
It is simple. ATC have NO obligation to continue assigning you lower altitudes AFTER you've called Visual, for obvious reasons: you've just accepted responsibility for the approach! So, it's simple: DON'T accept a Visual approach (or call Visual), until you are at, or have been assigned, an altitude that is OK for your type's profile and performance to do a visual landing without busting all the various altitude requirements.
I'm with Stupid:
This generally doesn't happen much these days: the controllers know what we need (we've trained them). But as I have said above, don't call Visual until they assign you the lowest Radar Lowest Safe so you CAN do a reasonably under-control 5nm final.
Kaptin M,
A few of your posts have been a bit sus lately: now I know why! You ain't an Oz dweller are you??!! "What's a DME Arrival?" You've gotta be joking! It's just another example of how Oz aviation is streets ahead of the rest of the world in efficiency, much to the chagrin and annoyance of AOPA, Dick Smith and the rat brigade.
Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 22nd Aug 2002 at 15:20.
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VSA at night. As an ATC our operating procedures as opposed to AIP require us to put you on final assigned the lsalt or rad lsalt at a distance commensurate with that altitude. Further descent is not given until established on an aid usually vasis or glidepath. Certainly AIP states that a VSA can be assigned when straight in etc.
One point, at Sydney when on parallels you should call visual and if you have the runway in sight report that as well to allow the controller to apply the IVA standard. We have continual problems with pilots not making these calls when able.
During the pilots strike we were informed that all the foreign charters were trained and could be treated as an Australian operator. Nothing was more amusing than the ML-SY flight calling at 35nm and being cleared for a DME arrival R07.
One point, at Sydney when on parallels you should call visual and if you have the runway in sight report that as well to allow the controller to apply the IVA standard. We have continual problems with pilots not making these calls when able.
During the pilots strike we were informed that all the foreign charters were trained and could be treated as an Australian operator. Nothing was more amusing than the ML-SY flight calling at 35nm and being cleared for a DME arrival R07.
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My understanding of the books, is that if you receive
Cleared for Visual Approach
or
Cleared ILS (or whatever Instrument procedure you are Flying)
Then all previous altitude restrictions are cancelled unless they are added to that clearance.
Agree entirely that terrain clearance becomes the Pilots responsibility
I would also have to say what happened to courtesy/ professionalism on the airwaves. I've always found the best resolution is not over the radio but by use of the telephone. But that's just my opinion.
Cleared for Visual Approach
or
Cleared ILS (or whatever Instrument procedure you are Flying)
Then all previous altitude restrictions are cancelled unless they are added to that clearance.
Agree entirely that terrain clearance becomes the Pilots responsibility
I would also have to say what happened to courtesy/ professionalism on the airwaves. I've always found the best resolution is not over the radio but by use of the telephone. But that's just my opinion.
Bottums Up
Bloggs,
I'm not sure that I understand what you're trying to say. What relevant part of the quote did I leave out?
What I was alluding to is that the Pilot, as per NFRs original post, called visual, thus indicating s/he was prepared to take obstacle clearance responsibility, IAW the AIP.
I'm not sure I understand why one shouldn't call visual at 30 nm. Surely it is a pilot's choice type thing. Sometimes in DRW it's not wise as one can't really be sure that continuous reference to ground or water can be maintained.
However, on many dry season evenings, particularly with a full moon, there's no doubt that the call can be quite safely made from many many miles out.
I'm not sure that I understand what you're trying to say. What relevant part of the quote did I leave out?
What I was alluding to is that the Pilot, as per NFRs original post, called visual, thus indicating s/he was prepared to take obstacle clearance responsibility, IAW the AIP.
I'm not sure I understand why one shouldn't call visual at 30 nm. Surely it is a pilot's choice type thing. Sometimes in DRW it's not wise as one can't really be sure that continuous reference to ground or water can be maintained.
However, on many dry season evenings, particularly with a full moon, there's no doubt that the call can be quite safely made from many many miles out.
Last edited by Capt Claret; 23rd Aug 2002 at 02:05.
Claret,
I got the impression from your bolding of must that as soon as we got to 30nm we had to call visual, that was all. But you did actually mention the desire bit. Sorry! I was just pointing out that equally important is the "desire" first, THEN the "must " comes into play. I don't normally "desire" until I'm in real close!
Yes, the whole thing gets back to QF getting a visual approach at 30nm, not getting any more lower altitude assignments, and bleating about it. As I said, I don't think ATC are obligated to give further descents if the pilot has called Visual and has been cleared for a Visual approach. Obviously, the QF troops didn't realise that!
By all means call Visual at 30nm, but don't expect continued ATC descents. It's all then up to you. I for one certainly am not going to start pulling out my DME Arrival chart at 30nm: I'm gunna make ATC use that $600m dollar elephant ie TARTS to make my life easy. It is dark outside, after all...
I got the impression from your bolding of must that as soon as we got to 30nm we had to call visual, that was all. But you did actually mention the desire bit. Sorry! I was just pointing out that equally important is the "desire" first, THEN the "must " comes into play. I don't normally "desire" until I'm in real close!
Yes, the whole thing gets back to QF getting a visual approach at 30nm, not getting any more lower altitude assignments, and bleating about it. As I said, I don't think ATC are obligated to give further descents if the pilot has called Visual and has been cleared for a Visual approach. Obviously, the QF troops didn't realise that!
By all means call Visual at 30nm, but don't expect continued ATC descents. It's all then up to you. I for one certainly am not going to start pulling out my DME Arrival chart at 30nm: I'm gunna make ATC use that $600m dollar elephant ie TARTS to make my life easy. It is dark outside, after all...
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Bloggs, I was tongue-in-cheek when I asked what a DME arrival was - as I said, it must be something that is peculiar to Australia, and it is. (There are VOR DME, and LOC DME approaches elsewhere, but no DME arrivals within a blanket sector). The most memorable one being for a straight in approach to R/W33 CNS.
It was the DME arrival into CNS that almost cost Ansett (RIP) an A320 - TWICE - when a couple of Yank scabs misread the steps. Ironically it was the ATC radar that the AFAP had pushed for, for many years, that saved them.
Who can forget those DME homing exercises in the box? Especially with Jacques on the F27 in ANSW - he'd set you up 50nm away, stick in a good initial headwind, and then wander off to the canteen (or hosties crew room) for half an hour.
DME homing...does anyone practice THAT anymore?
It was the DME arrival into CNS that almost cost Ansett (RIP) an A320 - TWICE - when a couple of Yank scabs misread the steps. Ironically it was the ATC radar that the AFAP had pushed for, for many years, that saved them.
Who can forget those DME homing exercises in the box? Especially with Jacques on the F27 in ANSW - he'd set you up 50nm away, stick in a good initial headwind, and then wander off to the canteen (or hosties crew room) for half an hour.
DME homing...does anyone practice THAT anymore?