Ladies in the sky
Most people end up getting married and having children, and women are the primary care givers of those children. The aviation industry is not family friendly when it come to working hours with aircraft operating 24/7, 365 days a year. Frequent extended periods away from home and call outs at short notice are normal.
An aviation career will usually involve several relocations often to less desirable locations in remote areas. Even if you go airline straight away, you probably won’t get the most desirable city base and upgrading to Captain can involve another move. Just ask Virgin Australia pilots about getting a Brisbane base.
Medicine, aviation and most other professions require the hard yards to be put in but once qualified as a doctor or lawyer you are likely to employed relatively quickly in a well paid job in a location of your choice. Get a CPL and you will be lucky to get any job, are probably going to have to move and will only get paid award wages.
A doctor has many different opportunities available, they can work for the RFDS, work on a cruise ship, enjoy flexible working arrangements at a 24 hour medical centre or major hospital and specialise in an area which interests them just to name a few.
Job security is incomparable without having to worry about annual medicals or base checks. Changing employers at any time isn’t difficult and doesn’t involve joining the bottom of the seniority list. How many doctors have been stood down due to COVID ?
Possibly there are so few women in aviation because they make better career choices.
An aviation career will usually involve several relocations often to less desirable locations in remote areas. Even if you go airline straight away, you probably won’t get the most desirable city base and upgrading to Captain can involve another move. Just ask Virgin Australia pilots about getting a Brisbane base.
Medicine, aviation and most other professions require the hard yards to be put in but once qualified as a doctor or lawyer you are likely to employed relatively quickly in a well paid job in a location of your choice. Get a CPL and you will be lucky to get any job, are probably going to have to move and will only get paid award wages.
A doctor has many different opportunities available, they can work for the RFDS, work on a cruise ship, enjoy flexible working arrangements at a 24 hour medical centre or major hospital and specialise in an area which interests them just to name a few.
Job security is incomparable without having to worry about annual medicals or base checks. Changing employers at any time isn’t difficult and doesn’t involve joining the bottom of the seniority list. How many doctors have been stood down due to COVID ?
Possibly there are so few women in aviation because they make better career choices.
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Originally Posted by redsnail
You've highlighted an issue here that is a societal one too. ........ Imagine if the airline had an affordable creche that was not time restricted and available to all working parents?
So, Finnair has 24 hour, company supplied child care available to every employee. Why is the rest of the "developed" world not doing this?
There were other aspects of "the having family process" that where way ahead of any other country, fully paid maternity leave etc. What a fantastic way to encourage ALL parents to get back to work after having kids. It would certainly reduce the "Get Home Itis" we all feel when running late for School/Childcare Pick up.
P.S. IMHO there are 3 types of pilots, The Good, The Bad and everyone else. GENDER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
P.P.S. I've also been on flights were the desire to NOT get home and pick up the kids has been the priority! ;-)
Last edited by Roj approved; 31st Mar 2021 at 00:07. Reason: added funny stuff
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Originally Posted by Global Aviator
Someone mentioned Singapore airlines. If I’m not mistaken they were one of the last airlines to employ female aviators, many years behind the Middle East.
Originally Posted by wheels_down
Yet they had no issue with female pilots in its subsidiary Tiger Singapore from the get go. Strange.
Call it societal or culture but basically it’s the same and certainly affected by the area you grow up in. If you are bought up in a city/large population with the associated benefits of schooling, sporting , variety of careers you are far better off than a country cousin. Yes it is far better now compared to years ago but we are influenced or more pointedly are a product of our environment. Given the access to the world now, through travel, internet etc. we are more aware of other “environments”. The introduction of STEM to make females more aware of what they can do does not give them a desire to do so. And yes this is due to a lack of role models. We are slowly evolving but to become a career woman once meant giving up the “normal” wife/mother role. It is far better now but still developing and is still stymied by the “product of your environment” with girls copying their mothers and other females. Having daughters allows me to expound this. Back to quota systems as a means of having/allowing females into a male dominated work force. I can see the advantage of doing so. If the choice is a female of equal qualifications or maybe just slightly less being given the nod over a male so be it. But to give the nod to a candidate based basically on gender alone whilst bypassing far better candidates causes more issues than can be addressed. Also as an employer I also have to choose the best candidate for my company. The one that fits the best and a large part of that is work. I have to factor in the additional factors of maternity leave etc. Yes becoming better with paternity leave but still a factor. As Krismiler stated, “aviation is not family friendly” and that is applicable to both genders.
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Oddly enough thru out the ages it's always been "them & us" and will continue to do so till the end of time!
The added challenge to all this in moden times is that there are 26 letters in the alphabet, we still have plenty to 'identify' with yet! -)
The added challenge to all this in moden times is that there are 26 letters in the alphabet, we still have plenty to 'identify' with yet! -)
Originally Posted by machtuk
Oddly enough thru out the ages it's always been "them & us" and will continue to do so till the end of time!
The added challenge to all this in moden times is that there are 26 letters in the alphabet, we still have plenty to 'identify' with yet! -)
The added challenge to all this in moden times is that there are 26 letters in the alphabet, we still have plenty to 'identify' with yet! -)
So, Finnair has 24 hour, company supplied child care available to every employee. Why is the rest of the "developed" world not doing this?
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Originally Posted by neville_nobody
Because they're not interested in paying 57% income tax and a 24% sales tax. Reality is you need two incomes there just to survive because you are donating half your household income to the government.
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Originally Posted by Skippy69
From a hiring point of view- do females get greater preference, I see some ladies getting positions that I would have thought that other colleagues where more suited for? Please leave sexism and misogyny out. Fairness is great, but sometimes I feel that at times it's too fair- if that makes sense.
Also, it is not possible to fully assess applicant qualifications in the hiring process (meaning, the hiring manager may miss things). Aside from quota systems that exist in certain circles and are utterly unfair, you may be experiencing a hiring team that gravitates toward females based on selection preferences relating to personality and teamwork traits. Hiring decisions are often quite personal. I see that as being human, but not being wrong.
Originally Posted by Roj approved
Very true, but we pay 42% plus 10% GST plus land tax, Stamp duty etc, so it's still pretty high, and we don't have the world class education system they have amongst other things they do well. It would be a good study to see the relative cost of living Finland v AUS, but maybe that is for a different thread.
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Originally Posted by TimmyTee
The actual percentage of your salary you pay to tax/ML etc isn't anywhere near 42% though is it? At "worst" it must be around 35-36% of your total salary
The point being, they have high tax rates, we have high tax rates, they have a good system for on premises child care, we pay +$50/day out of our pocket for the same in a off site location.
Things could be done better here in Aus for families
Originally Posted by Derfred
Australia has more females than males in medical school.
https://medicaldeans.org.au/md/2020/...ics-Report.pdf
The country of your namesake, Singapore, actually used to have quotas in favour of male doctors, as there were too many female doctors, and apparently they didn’t work hard enough or long enough. That was abolished in 2003.
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapo...fting-of-quota
But I don’t think you can compare the two professions when it comes to gender bias. Females were doctors before the Wright brothers rode bicycles. I know quite a few female doctors, and they can dictate their hours to fit around their family, and can easily move from one practice to another if it’s not suiting them. Trying doing that as an airline pilot. The medical profession seems to naturally attract females. So far, the pilot profession doesn’t seem too.
I agree with the rest of your post, except that you have limited your “fairness” to the selection process only.
It doesn’t stop there, there is more to it than that.
We must also ensure that the workplace culture is fair.
This is a discussion happening right now in Australian federal politics, because their workplace culture has proven to be very poor.
There is no point having a gender-neutral selection process if the females are poorly treated by their male colleagues (or managers, or trainers and checkers) once they get the job.
https://medicaldeans.org.au/md/2020/...ics-Report.pdf
The country of your namesake, Singapore, actually used to have quotas in favour of male doctors, as there were too many female doctors, and apparently they didn’t work hard enough or long enough. That was abolished in 2003.
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapo...fting-of-quota
But I don’t think you can compare the two professions when it comes to gender bias. Females were doctors before the Wright brothers rode bicycles. I know quite a few female doctors, and they can dictate their hours to fit around their family, and can easily move from one practice to another if it’s not suiting them. Trying doing that as an airline pilot. The medical profession seems to naturally attract females. So far, the pilot profession doesn’t seem too.
I agree with the rest of your post, except that you have limited your “fairness” to the selection process only.
It doesn’t stop there, there is more to it than that.
We must also ensure that the workplace culture is fair.
This is a discussion happening right now in Australian federal politics, because their workplace culture has proven to be very poor.
There is no point having a gender-neutral selection process if the females are poorly treated by their male colleagues (or managers, or trainers and checkers) once they get the job.
