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Old 30th Mar 2021, 17:43
  #81 (permalink)  

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Derfred, if I may
I’ve flown with a female who really didn’t want to be late home because the baby-sitter was only booked until 8 o’clock.
You've highlighted an issue here that is a societal one too. Naturally, I don't know your colleague's situation, but for a single parent (assumption), this is a real problem. Airines (and other shift working industries) aren't always parent friendly. Flight attendants would have been affected by the same situation, as too, a male single parent. Imagine if the airline had an affordable creche that was not time restricted and available to all working parents?

I have done a few high school careers days and open days in the past couple of years in the UK. Even today, it is amazing the number of teenage girls who are just not aware that being a pilot is open to them. What is nice is to see their eyes widen when they realise that not only aviation but other industries are available to them. Encouraging girls and boys to explore all options for sport and jobs begins well before school starts.

Last edited by redsnail; 30th Mar 2021 at 18:28.
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 23:13
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Most people end up getting married and having children, and women are the primary care givers of those children. The aviation industry is not family friendly when it come to working hours with aircraft operating 24/7, 365 days a year. Frequent extended periods away from home and call outs at short notice are normal.

An aviation career will usually involve several relocations often to less desirable locations in remote areas. Even if you go airline straight away, you probably won’t get the most desirable city base and upgrading to Captain can involve another move. Just ask Virgin Australia pilots about getting a Brisbane base.

Medicine, aviation and most other professions require the hard yards to be put in but once qualified as a doctor or lawyer you are likely to employed relatively quickly in a well paid job in a location of your choice. Get a CPL and you will be lucky to get any job, are probably going to have to move and will only get paid award wages.

A doctor has many different opportunities available, they can work for the RFDS, work on a cruise ship, enjoy flexible working arrangements at a 24 hour medical centre or major hospital and specialise in an area which interests them just to name a few.

Job security is incomparable without having to worry about annual medicals or base checks. Changing employers at any time isn’t difficult and doesn’t involve joining the bottom of the seniority list. How many doctors have been stood down due to COVID ?

Possibly there are so few women in aviation because they make better career choices.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 00:03
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by redsnail View Post
You've highlighted an issue here that is a societal one too. ........ Imagine if the airline had an affordable creche that was not time restricted and available to all working parents?
Many years ago I was in Helsinki doing a rating, chatting to the SIM Training co ordinator about all things, we got onto this. From my memory of the conversation, In Finland, a company of more than 100 employees is required by law to have on premises child care open for the hours the company operates. (I seem to remember her saying it was free, but it was 2007 so I can't be sure.)

So, Finnair has 24 hour, company supplied child care available to every employee. Why is the rest of the "developed" world not doing this?

There were other aspects of "the having family process" that where way ahead of any other country, fully paid maternity leave etc. What a fantastic way to encourage ALL parents to get back to work after having kids. It would certainly reduce the "Get Home Itis" we all feel when running late for School/Childcare Pick up.

P.S. IMHO there are 3 types of pilots, The Good, The Bad and everyone else. GENDER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

P.P.S. I've also been on flights were the desire to NOT get home and pick up the kids has been the priority! ;-)

Last edited by Roj approved; 31st Mar 2021 at 00:07. Reason: added funny stuff
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 00:18
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Someone mentioned Singapore airlines. If I’m not mistaken they were one of the last airlines to employ female aviators, many years behind the Middle East.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 05:04
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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True, the first cadets were taken on about 5 years ago and with the COVID situation, probably won’t see the left seat for at least another 10 years.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 10:11
  #86 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Global Aviator View Post
Someone mentioned Singapore airlines. If Iím not mistaken they were one of the last airlines to employ female aviators, many years behind the Middle East.
Thai Airways is still male only.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 10:17
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Yet they had no issue with female pilots in its subsidiary Tiger Singapore from the get go. Strange.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 11:21
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wheels_down View Post
Yet they had no issue with female pilots in its subsidiary Tiger Singapore from the get go. Strange.
Scootís Head of 787 Training was a woman, before SQ mainline even had a single female pilot.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 22:32
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Call it societal or culture but basically it’s the same and certainly affected by the area you grow up in. If you are bought up in a city/large population with the associated benefits of schooling, sporting , variety of careers you are far better off than a country cousin. Yes it is far better now compared to years ago but we are influenced or more pointedly are a product of our environment. Given the access to the world now, through travel, internet etc. we are more aware of other “environments”. The introduction of STEM to make females more aware of what they can do does not give them a desire to do so. And yes this is due to a lack of role models. We are slowly evolving but to become a career woman once meant giving up the “normal” wife/mother role. It is far better now but still developing and is still stymied by the “product of your environment” with girls copying their mothers and other females. Having daughters allows me to expound this. Back to quota systems as a means of having/allowing females into a male dominated work force. I can see the advantage of doing so. If the choice is a female of equal qualifications or maybe just slightly less being given the nod over a male so be it. But to give the nod to a candidate based basically on gender alone whilst bypassing far better candidates causes more issues than can be addressed. Also as an employer I also have to choose the best candidate for my company. The one that fits the best and a large part of that is work. I have to factor in the additional factors of maternity leave etc. Yes becoming better with paternity leave but still a factor. As Krismiler stated, “aviation is not family friendly” and that is applicable to both genders.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 22:43
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Oddly enough thru out the ages it's always been "them & us" and will continue to do so till the end of time!
The added challenge to all this in moden times is that there are 26 letters in the alphabet, we still have plenty to 'identify' with yet! -)
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Old 1st Apr 2021, 01:51
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by machtuk View Post
Oddly enough thru out the ages it's always been "them & us" and will continue to do so till the end of time!
The added challenge to all this in moden times is that there are 26 letters in the alphabet, we still have plenty to 'identify' with yet! -)
Until we reach utopia, god forbid because all desire, motivation, and competitiveness, will no longer be part of our mentality and we will just stare at sunrises and sunsets, there will always be a competitive basis to life. As such an us and them or a me and you will always be part of humanity (as with any pecking order in the animal kingdom).
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Old 1st Apr 2021, 01:58
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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So, Finnair has 24 hour, company supplied child care available to every employee. Why is the rest of the "developed" world not doing this?
Because they're not interested in paying 57% income tax and a 24% sales tax. Reality is you need two incomes there just to survive because you are donating half your household income to the government.
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Old 1st Apr 2021, 02:51
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by neville_nobody View Post
Because they're not interested in paying 57% income tax and a 24% sales tax. Reality is you need two incomes there just to survive because you are donating half your household income to the government.
Very true, but we pay 42% plus 10% GST plus land tax, Stamp duty etc, so it's still pretty high, and we don't have the world class education system they have amongst other things they do well. It would be a good study to see the relative cost of living Finland v AUS, but maybe that is for a different thread.
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Old 1st Apr 2021, 03:20
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Skippy69 View Post
From a hiring point of view- do females get greater preference, I see some ladies getting positions that I would have thought that other colleagues where more suited for? Please leave sexism and misogyny out. Fairness is great, but sometimes I feel that at times it's too fair- if that makes sense.
Some people get along better with female personalities than male personalities, and visa-versa. If there is a panel of applicants with similar qualifications, the deciding factor in the selection often boils down to personality preferences of the hiring manager or hiring team. Also, hiring managers may emphasize certain qualifications and warning signals that you do not value or observe in a coworker.

Also, it is not possible to fully assess applicant qualifications in the hiring process (meaning, the hiring manager may miss things). Aside from quota systems that exist in certain circles and are utterly unfair, you may be experiencing a hiring team that gravitates toward females based on selection preferences relating to personality and teamwork traits. Hiring decisions are often quite personal. I see that as being human, but not being wrong.
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Old 1st Apr 2021, 03:25
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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I think that’s enough, is this discussion Finnished now?

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Old 1st Apr 2021, 04:09
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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I have been around aeroplanes too long, was there a fat lady singing somewhere?
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Old 1st Apr 2021, 06:17
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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Well there was a flying one.....
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Old 1st Apr 2021, 13:13
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Roj approved View Post
Very true, but we pay 42% plus 10% GST plus land tax, Stamp duty etc, so it's still pretty high, and we don't have the world class education system they have amongst other things they do well. It would be a good study to see the relative cost of living Finland v AUS, but maybe that is for a different thread.
The actual percentage of your salary you pay to tax/ML etc isn't anywhere near 42% though is it? At "worst" it must be around 35-36% of your total salary
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Old 1st Apr 2021, 22:29
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TimmyTee View Post
The actual percentage of your salary you pay to tax/ML etc isn't anywhere near 42% though is it? At "worst" it must be around 35-36% of your total salary
Thanks Timmy, do you know if Finland has the same sliding scale of income tax?

The point being, they have high tax rates, we have high tax rates, they have a good system for on premises child care, we pay +$50/day out of our pocket for the same in a off site location.

Things could be done better here in Aus for families
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Old 2nd Apr 2021, 09:00
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Originally Posted by Derfred View Post
Australia has more females than males in medical school.

https://medicaldeans.org.au/md/2020/...ics-Report.pdf

The country of your namesake, Singapore, actually used to have quotas in favour of male doctors, as there were too many female doctors, and apparently they didnít work hard enough or long enough. That was abolished in 2003.

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapo...fting-of-quota

But I donít think you can compare the two professions when it comes to gender bias. Females were doctors before the Wright brothers rode bicycles. I know quite a few female doctors, and they can dictate their hours to fit around their family, and can easily move from one practice to another if itís not suiting them. Trying doing that as an airline pilot. The medical profession seems to naturally attract females. So far, the pilot profession doesnít seem too.

I agree with the rest of your post, except that you have limited your ďfairnessĒ to the selection process only.

It doesnít stop there, there is more to it than that.

We must also ensure that the workplace culture is fair.

This is a discussion happening right now in Australian federal politics, because their workplace culture has proven to be very poor.

There is no point having a gender-neutral selection process if the females are poorly treated by their male colleagues (or managers, or trainers and checkers) once they get the job.
Who decides on what is poor treatment and what can and cannot be said? That is a very dangerous 'WOKE SLOPE' you are heading down and it never ends well!!
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