Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Jetstar and Ballina again

Old 1st Mar 2021, 00:11
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Jetstar and Ballina again

Iím sure the CP is mighty pleased, not.

Will be interesting to see if the A320 was on 124.2.

The ATSB is continuing its investigation into a separation occurrence in uncontrolled airspace near Ballina where recorded data showed that the tracks of an Airbus A320 and a private Jabiru two-seat recreational aircraft intersected with a vertical separation of about 600 feet.
News: Ballina separation occurrence

Last edited by wheels_down; 1st Mar 2021 at 00:24.
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Old 1st Mar 2021, 03:13
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Anybody that operates into Ballina knows that it's just a matter of time untill Australia's first Major hull loss occurs here. But no one in CASA etc wants to listen. Thanks for the extra 5nm though! I'll sure sleep easier now 🙄 . I hope I'm wrong but I fear that I'm not.
if and when it does happen, people deserve to go to jail.
​​​​​
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Old 1st Mar 2021, 04:06
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The Airbus did get a reply from both the Virgin 737 and the ground.

I donít think the Airbusí radio is at fault here. The Jab said they heard nothing from anyone, and nobody heard anything from them either. Be interesting to see if anyone at Evans Head heard them.

However yes JS will have no hair left if these keep coming.
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Old 1st Mar 2021, 07:05
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Originally Posted by cLeArIcE View Post
Anybody that operates into Ballina knows that it's just a matter of time untill Australia's first Major hull loss occurs here. But no one in CASA etc wants to listen. Thanks for the extra 5nm though! I'll sure sleep easier now 🙄 . I hope I'm wrong but I fear that I'm not.
if and when it does happen, people deserve to go to jail.
​​​​​
or Mildura. Similar risk in my experience.
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Old 1st Mar 2021, 08:28
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Originally Posted by cLeArIcE View Post
Anybody that operates into Ballina knows that it's just a matter of time untill Australia's first Major hull loss occurs here. But no one in CASA etc wants to listen. Thanks for the extra 5nm though! I'll sure sleep easier now 🙄 . I hope I'm wrong but I fear that I'm not.
if and when it does happen, people deserve to go to jail.
​​​​​
I operate there and i don't..There are two RPT airfields within about 30km of each other (Ballina and Lismore) and another one just down the road at Coollangatta. How many airfields does NoStar need to ferry people down to footy matches or up for Instagram shots at Byron Bay? Surely just choose one, preferably Lismore as it is further from Cooly..Why should someone outside Jetstar or Virgin go to jail when its them that are just after the $$$ and so flying to destinations where apparently it is so unsafe.

I get that Jetstar/Virgin pilots want the Northern RIvers airspace effectively closed off to many local aviators (not me personally but others i know) and I am a realist to understand that it will happen, but give it a rest. "Matter of time until a hull loss" because there was a radio issue and came within 600 feet once. I get the impression some pilots haven't had a lot of exposure to overseas ops. Obviously anyone flying RPT will throw hands up in horror at the suggestion, but really? It is a 10 mile RNAV final into a regional airport for budget travelers, not Kai Tak so just maybe calm down.

Last edited by extralite; 1st Mar 2021 at 08:52.
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Old 1st Mar 2021, 10:34
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"Within 600ft Vertically."...isn't that the vert 'separation' for VFR vs IFR tracks in 'E'...... So, what makes this 'Separation' different....in terms of 'Safety' of course...?

(Yeah, different class of airspace is it? But....there's still 600 ft.....)

Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 1st Mar 2021 at 11:00.
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Old 1st Mar 2021, 10:48
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Is there actually a legal separation minima in class G airspace? If they miss there may not be a regulatory issue.
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Old 1st Mar 2021, 13:01
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I think a few of you are missing the point.

The fact that they missed by 600 feet was pure luck.

Neither aircraft saw the other, and neither aircraft heard the other on the radio. That is a problem.

There is a separate argument about mandatory transponders - one aircraft did not have it operating in Mode C. That is a problem.
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Old 1st Mar 2021, 13:57
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Originally Posted by extralite View Post
I operate there and i don't..There are two RPT airfields within about 30km of each other (Ballina and Lismore) and another one just down the road at Coollangatta. How many airfields does NoStar need to ferry people down to footy matches or up for Instagram shots at Byron Bay? Surely just choose one, preferably Lismore as it is further from Cooly..Why should someone outside Jetstar or Virgin go to jail when its them that are just after the $$$ and so flying to destinations where apparently it is so unsafe.

I get that Jetstar/Virgin pilots want the Northern RIvers airspace effectively closed off to many local aviators (not me personally but others i know) and I am a realist to understand that it will happen, but give it a rest. "Matter of time until a hull loss" because there was a radio issue and came within 600 feet once. I get the impression some pilots haven't had a lot of exposure to overseas ops. Obviously anyone flying RPT will throw hands up in horror at the suggestion, but really? It is a 10 mile RNAV final into a regional airport for budget travelers, not Kai Tak so just maybe calm down.

I've seen some stupid posts on the forum in the last 20 years, but this has to be - hands down - the most stupid.
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Old 1st Mar 2021, 20:20
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Oh but wait, I see CASA has now extended the boundary to fifteen miles. That will make all the difference.
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Old 1st Mar 2021, 20:28
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Spot on Derfred. Ballina is just a game of Russian Roulette if an RPT jet only sights a Jabiru when it flies underneath it! Jetstar has had a few incidents at Ballina so I'm not sure how much further evidence management needs to either pay for a tower or withdraw from the route.
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Old 1st Mar 2021, 23:46
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Originally Posted by extralite View Post
I operate there and i don't..There are two RPT airfields within about 30km of each other (Ballina and Lismore) and another one just down the road at Coollangatta. How many airfields does NoStar need to ferry people down to footy matches or up for Instagram shots at Byron Bay? Surely just choose one, preferably Lismore as it is further from Cooly..Why should someone outside Jetstar or Virgin go to jail when its them that are just after the $$$ and so flying to destinations where apparently it is so unsafe.

I get that Jetstar/Virgin pilots want the Northern RIvers airspace effectively closed off to many local aviators (not me personally but others i know) and I am a realist to understand that it will happen, but give it a rest. "Matter of time until a hull loss" because there was a radio issue and came within 600 feet once. I get the impression some pilots haven't had a lot of exposure to overseas ops. Obviously anyone flying RPT will throw hands up in horror at the suggestion, but really? It is a 10 mile RNAV final into a regional airport for budget travelers, not Kai Tak so just maybe calm down.
Ive done plenty of flying overseas RPT and you are correct, Kai Tak it is not. It's a little short & narrow for a 737/320 but nothing too scary. Not a big deal. But that's hardly what we are discussing is it. It's the Level and mix of traffic. Especially (as someone pointed out) the lack Of transponders and the unwillingness to talk to us.
It's not Just 1 incident but a string of incidents. 600 ft seperation by pure luck is not how I like to do business.

This is not Just weekend warriors. I've had plenty of IFR aircraft happy to blast off in our direction, in IMC, resistant to applying any hard seperation standard. I've also herd of many VA/JQ crews not perform to a fantastic standard too.
It's not one specific groups fault, it's just...there should of been a tower a long time ago.

Last edited by cLeArIcE; 2nd Mar 2021 at 00:13.
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Old 2nd Mar 2021, 00:42
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Originally Posted by extralite View Post
I operate there and i don't..There are two RPT airfields within about 30km of each other (Ballina and Lismore) and another one just down the road at Coollangatta. How many airfields does NoStar need to ferry people down to footy matches or up for Instagram shots at Byron Bay? Surely just choose one, preferably Lismore as it is further from Cooly..Why should someone outside Jetstar or Virgin go to jail when its them that are just after the $$$ and so flying to destinations where apparently it is so unsafe.

I get that Jetstar/Virgin pilots want the Northern RIvers airspace effectively closed off to many local aviators (not me personally but others i know) and I am a realist to understand that it will happen, but give it a rest. "Matter of time until a hull loss" because there was a radio issue and came within 600 feet once. I get the impression some pilots haven't had a lot of exposure to overseas ops. Obviously anyone flying RPT will throw hands up in horror at the suggestion, but really? It is a 10 mile RNAV final into a regional airport for budget travelers, not Kai Tak so just maybe calm down.
This guy is why we have instructions on Shampoo.
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Old 2nd Mar 2021, 02:22
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I presume the final report will provide how things would have been different if the SAFIS at Ballina was in place as planned in the next few months....

Otherwise, why have ATSB at all? Just like the ATR at AY?
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Old 2nd Mar 2021, 07:24
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Originally Posted by Lookleft View Post
Spot on Derfred. Ballina is just a game of Russian Roulette if an RPT jet only sights a Jabiru when it flies underneath it! Jetstar has had a few incidents at Ballina so I'm not sure how much further evidence management needs to either pay for a tower or withdraw from the route.
Whoís management pays? Isnít it ASAís job to provide a tower and pass on the costs?

This model may be flawed, but until 180 paying pax who deserve better and old mate in his Jabiru are all charred at the bottom of a smoking hole it appears that no-one outside of ASA can do anything about it.
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Old 2nd Mar 2021, 07:33
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https://www.casa.gov.au/airspace
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Old 2nd Mar 2021, 10:39
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Isn’t it ASA’s job to provide a tower and pass on the costs?
Its not ASA's logo on the news when the inevitable occurs. I'm sure if Jetstar wanted to provide for the cost of a Tower, ASA would supply the hardware and the personnel.
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Old 2nd Mar 2021, 10:54
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This guy is why we have instructions on Shampoo.
Unfortunately you need to realise that QF Link and their 50 seat aeroplanes have been operating into these environments for decades.

A LCC 320 operating into the same environment draws a lot of precious comments, step back and realise that maybe their is a problem on both sides. Maybe its time for JQ pilots to stand up and say that regional airports are too dangerous to operate into.

There is no difference between QF Link and JQ, why is this a headline? A320's are regional commuters in this decade and LCC's like JQ amplify this.

A320's and B737's are the new regional commuters, they are no longer the big jets which Australia's myopic attitude have had us believe.
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Old 2nd Mar 2021, 11:14
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Portable and cheap ADSB traffic systems for VFR were approved in July 2020, so the game has changed. A Sky Echo ADSB in/out VFR box is the size of a fag packet, mounts on the window of any lighty and costs $900 - every user and other IFR can see each other out to 40miles. These incidents would virtually stop overnight if CASA were to mandate ADSB in CTAFs where RPT operate.
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Old 2nd Mar 2021, 11:48
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Did this same (similar) scenario actually just happen again? i.e. in the past week?
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