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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

Old 25th Aug 2020, 00:06
  #1601 (permalink)  
Keg

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Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
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I was on the understanding that all matters that weren’t allowable were removed from EAs a number of years ago. We used to have a number of ‘letters of agreement’ that sat beside our award but when FWA came in many of these items were either included in the EA or deemed not allowable and removed.

Thus, everything in the award is allowable including the notion of who is made CR first.

For the avoidance of doubt, non allowable term can be found here.

I’m not sure what the ‘industrial court’ is you’re referring to Xeptu. The LHEA is a national award and overseen by Fairwork Australia. They’re the ones that rule on all matters relating to it. What is this ‘industrial court’ you speak of? NSW has the NSW IR commission but it overseas the state awards of things like NSW coppers, nurses, ambos, public service, etc.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 00:18
  #1602 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Keg View Post
Iím not sure what the Ďindustrial courtí is youíre referring to Xeptu. The LHEA is a national award and overseen by Fairwork Australia. Theyíre the ones that rule on all matters relating to it. What is this Ďindustrial courtí you speak of? NSW has the NSW IR commission but it overseas the state awards of things like NSW coppers, nurses, ambos, public service, etc.
Yeah things have changed a bit since I retired and I still use the old terms a bit, The Industrial Court is now the Federal Court that hears Industrial matters.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 00:21
  #1603 (permalink)  
Keg

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Right. The court you appeal to after the Fair Work Commission has ruled on the issue. So the Industrial division of the Federal Court which is always going to be the next point up the ladder after Fair Work.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 00:52
  #1604 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Tucknroll View Post
We all know it VR was a bad deal, the only ones who took it are either jack of the politics or were going to leave anyway. Early retirement even more so.
It was such a bad deal they got pretty much exactly the numbers they were looking for. I doubt whether 190 pilots under the age of 63 were going to leave imminently.

All the 747s have gone, 6 A380s wonít fly again, a bunch of A330s reaching end of life and no orders for the foreseeable future (Iím fact 787s not being delivered) and what, 190 pilots gone with VR?
The numbers for VR and ER will account for more than the surplus 747 pilots if you do the math. The negotiations being conducted right now are about managing the numbers of pilots needed to fly less aircraft until some point in the future when the numbers are become right. It will probably mean lower divisors for a period, and the subsequent reduced pay, but that will be better than being made redundant. Even if divisors are reduced to half of the existing ones itíll still be a more than liveable wage for most pilots.

CR is a better option than long term stand down for pilots. If you donít want CR then do what the company want and take LWOP, a bunch already have. Iím a middle seniority S/O and Iíd prefer to be paid out if theyíre going to leave me hanging for years, at least then Iíve got money to stay afloat and do other things.
If you are CRíd then you are out of the group, out of the system. You do come back in seniority when recruiting is needed again, but that may be a long, long time away. If thatís the case HR may decide to use existing pilots to their maximum extent rather than authorise the re-recruitment of those CRíd. Wouldnít it be better to share the flying around with a lower divisor in the interim and remain in the group with a regular income? Thatís my thought anyway, others may be different. I guess the option of VR was there if anyone wanted a payout now.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 03:42
  #1605 (permalink)  
 
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Wouldn’t it be better to share the flying around with a lower divisor in the interim and remain in the group with a regular income?
That would be the fairest outcome but there will be those whose self-interest will override any consideration of fairness or pilot solidarity. I hope that I am ultimately proved wrong but thirty years in the industry has taught me never to stand between a pilot and a bucket of self-interest.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 05:10
  #1606 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Even if divisors are reduced to half of the existing ones itíll still be a more than liveable wage for most pilots.

If you are CRíd then you are out of the group, out of the system. You do come back in seniority when recruiting is needed again, but that may be a long, long time away. If thatís the case HR may decide to use existing pilots to their maximum extent rather than authorise the re-recruitment of those CRíd.

Wouldnít it be better to share the flying around with a lower divisor in the interim and remain in the group with a regular income? Thatís my thought anyway, others may be different. I guess the option of VR was there if anyone wanted a payout now.
I disagree - a 50% pay cut is untenable for most. Any scaremongering to reduce divisor as a method of serving the greater good is nonsense. If the company deem they will not carry the surplus then there is an EBA provision for how that is handled. The company will weigh that cost vs a short term surplus. If itís anything other than short term, then a few months of half divisors wonít make a material difference to the company - but it would make a massive difference to the individuals involved.

HR using pilots to maximum? EBA covers that too.

Donít be so keen to throw out your award - those provisions that are in place arenít there by accident.

Selfish? I donít think so, but itís not up to us to fix the companyís problems.

Saving redundancies at massive cost? Not for me Iím afraid. Make me CR, Iíll come back when the time comes.

Just 1 opinion.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 06:16
  #1607 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
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Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist View Post
I disagree - a 50% pay cut is untenable for most. Any scaremongering to reduce divisor as a method of serving the greater good is nonsense. If the company deem they will not carry the surplus then there is an EBA provision for how that is handled. The company will weigh that cost vs a short term surplus. If itís anything other than short term, then a few months of half divisors wonít make a material difference to the company - but it would make a massive difference to the individuals involved.

HR using pilots to maximum? EBA covers that too.

Donít be so keen to throw out your award - those provisions that are in place arenít there by accident.

Selfish? I donít think so, but itís not up to us to fix the companyís problems.

Saving redundancies at massive cost? Not for me Iím afraid. Make me CR, Iíll come back when the time comes.

Just 1 opinion.
Hear hear.

Iím tired of surveys and platitudes from the union.
We have an agreement, signed during COVID no less, letís stick to it. The company doesnít vary the EA in good times to give us extra pay rises or more paid leave. I have no doubt how an approach for such variations would be received by the company.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 07:03
  #1608 (permalink)  
 
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Should be more like the Brits , they avoided large CR by taking a pay cut , 16% or something

VR was a good deal matched CR for those under 5 years, about 80% of CR for those who joined from 05 to 09 , further back it wound its way back to 50%
of CR that doesn't happen until mid 90s

The Virgin 20 year pilots got 16 weeks

If you want CR stay, if you don't take lwop & also any "group" opportunities (yes we all know looking smallish at the moment, but 40 or so jobs for stand downs in group airlines to date , NZ QF airlines looking ok, people do retire)

But understand that if you take CR you will return on year 1 pay scales , that will suck up any benefits accrued on stand down quickly, but that isn't even the start of it
Also be aware of 32.7 & the new reduced rates applicable if QF order the A350. If you return from CR as an SO you will commence on $100 per hour rising to a ceiling of $115 an hour after six years & you will be subject to the new B scale that EBA 10 brings in. SO rates at twenty bucks an hour less than the 787

If you complain to QF about above they will just remind you "Well you voted for it mate"

It is hard to see QF doing nothing, all the current situation does is increase the SO wage bill for when flying does return

Last edited by Telfer86; 25th Aug 2020 at 08:01.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 07:37
  #1609 (permalink)  
 
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Zero concessions from an organisation utilising stand down clauses when there is no work means zero concessions when that work returns.

Flexibility goes both ways.

Last edited by beautiful_butterfly; 25th Aug 2020 at 08:10.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 08:14
  #1610 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by beautiful_butterfly View Post
Zero concessions from an organisation utilising stand down clauses when there is no work means zero concessions when that work returns.

Flexibility goes both ways.
Boom! Perfectly put.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 08:41
  #1611 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by beautiful_butterfly View Post
Zero concessions from an organisation utilising stand down clauses when there is no work means zero concessions when that work returns.

Flexibility goes both ways.
Higher divisors will mean less crew stood up so rolling stand ups will occur, effectively reducing income by the same percentage anyway. So in effect they pay cut will be the same but the payments less regular, and probably harder to plan a budget.

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Old 25th Aug 2020, 08:44
  #1612 (permalink)  
 
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NJS bases in PER and CNS will also close.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 09:02
  #1613 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chad Gates View Post
NJS bases in PER and CNS will also close.
Making way for Network 320 expansion apparently.

NJS redeploying aircraft and crew with a new Melbourne base
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 09:49
  #1614 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Higher divisors will mean less crew stood up so rolling stand ups will occur, effectively reducing income by the same percentage anyway. So in effect they pay cut will be the same but the payments less regular, and probably harder to plan a budget.
Except once restrictions are lifted you canít keep the workforce stood down.

All will be stood up, albeit on MGH.

The indefinite stand down is a good fear generator, but itís not how the law works. Hence why LWOP is being pushed so hard. If you can convince a percentage of your workforce to volunteer for LWOP - thatís a whole bunch less you have to pay when everyone is stood up again.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 10:08
  #1615 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist View Post
Except once restrictions are lifted you can’t keep the workforce stood down.
The first stand downs were issued when passengers numbers dropped off because of pandemic fears, before national or state borders closed. I don't think the status of the border was the reasoning used for stand downs. The other thought is that (up until June) there were open interstate borders between some states, yet domestic crews from various group entities and various bases were still stood down as required.

Even if it is I'm guessing there will be some form of restrictions applied to international entry like quarantine, vaccination, proof of negative antibody test, restrictions on entry from certain countries etc for a few years which would allow continued use of stand downs. Maybe it is thought stand downs can be used until flying is back to '19 levels. It may end up in court, but that will probably occur in a year or two. A long way off.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 10:38
  #1616 (permalink)  
 
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I hope everyone remembers our corrupt Govt leaders especially our head grub Dan when this is all over (if ever!)
There will be a reckoning one day for these grubs and it won't be pretty!
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 10:42
  #1617 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist View Post
Except once restrictions are lifted you canít keep the workforce stood down.

All will be stood up, albeit on MGH.

The indefinite stand down is a good fear generator, but itís not how the law works. Hence why LWOP is being pushed so hard. If you can convince a percentage of your workforce to volunteer for LWOP - thatís a whole bunch less you have to pay when everyone is stood up again.
Oh for goodness sake, yes they can keep you stood down.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 11:04
  #1618 (permalink)  
 
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They will keep everyone without work stood down until they are legally obliged to, I know a lot give Normanton some stick, but he/she is absolutely right! Until they are forced to otherwise it ain’t gonna happen. And that means keeping A380 pilots stood down for 3-5 years, they won’t change that unless there is a legal challenge to it.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 11:43
  #1619 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
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Originally Posted by angryrat View Post
You need to go read the award. Specifically 15.10.4(a) and 15.10.6. Itís 26 weeks minimum and Ďa weeks payí is defined.

So the minimum is 26 weeks, plus AL and any pilot who has more than 12 months continuous service is also entitled to pro-rata LSL(another 9 days leave per year).

So many experts on here who either havenít read the award or who have FA to do with QF spreading fear and rumours.
Itís an agreement, not an award, and Iíve read it.
im talking about 10.4 (a):

ďThe Company must give a pilot at least three (3) monthsí notice of termination due to redundancy provided, that the combined period of notice and the redundancy entitlement specified in clause 15.10.5 will not be less than 26 weeks.Ē

Tell me, how much does the 3 months notice cost the company when youíre on stand down? Iíll save you the thinking time, Itís nothing except the leave you accrue in that time.

so say you have used all your leave (as many have) and you are given notice that you will be made redundant? How much is the minimum amount of pay you will get?

the answer is 3 months plus 1.5 or so weeks AL/LSL that You will accrue in the 3 months notice period.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 12:41
  #1620 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting nobody really wants to discuss the real issues of CR, when you return, on year increment one , and the new SO rates you would be
paid on return (given if QF order the 350) that top out at $115 an hour on the Airbus WB

The payout is excellent (but they won't pay the three months notice plus 4 weeks per year) , the return is at year one & on a B scale SO table

Arm yourself with the facts , not the she'll be right get a payout & be back on deck in 2 or 3 years on the same bucks - it's not going to work like that

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