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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

Old 14th Jul 2020, 05:08
  #761 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Sydney
Age: 40
Posts: 112
Just what every other Airline in the world is doing

Why is Qantas any exception ?

You don't do any international flying atm & domestic is tiny

Do you actually believe all this "Australian exceptionalism" BS that gets promulgated by the Aussie media and talk feast brigade

That we are something special and have the best Universities ,national airlines, beaches , places to live ,pilots & for that matter everything else in the world ?

That we are "above" the outside world & what happens there - well that just has no relevance to us

Out from me



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Old 14th Jul 2020, 05:18
  #762 (permalink)  
 
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If you are directing that me? People love outrage, disaster. The media and lefttards have now created that for anybody who wants to participate. A bit of rational and critical thinking is now required. The AFR reports that 38 billion that was spent on overseas tourism is now out of the question, I'd love to see how business adapts to the current situation and ensures that money gets spent in this country. But if you or anyone else wants to fixate on disaster and outrage, go for it. Unfortunately, life goes on.
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Old 14th Jul 2020, 06:36
  #763 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Koizi
Thats not how it works. Wish you guys took the time to read your awards and the integration award of 1994.
The company can offer VR/ LWOP/ or Early Termination packages as they see fit to whomever they need to with whatever conditions they deem appropriate. They can then do a RIN as needed. The various awards don't have much by way of rules in these circumstances except for the fact that a RIN is quarantined within the applicable award.
ONLY IF AND WHEN they use CR do the rules change. The integration award takes precedence and redundancy starts at the bottom of the Q seniority list.
Your notion that all the affected pilots then have to do is go on LWOP to avoid redundancy is plain WRONG.
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Old 14th Jul 2020, 07:00
  #764 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Telfer86 View Post
Just what every other Airline in the world is doing

Why is Qantas any exception ?
Iím wondering if those posting here are actually reading previous posts on the thread.
Iíll spell it out again:

Australia has stand down provisions, many other countries (inc NZ) do not.
The 190 surplus comes primarily from the 747 retirement and is the forecast surplus til mid 2022.
Unless something changes the remaining pilots are forecast to resume flying at some stage.
So they will remain stood down until that point.
Itís expected the 190 surplus will be primarily managed with VR.
No CR is expected from this process (thatís my opinion I should add)
The forecast on numbers was done til mid 2022, SH flying is expected to be back at normal well before then so no SH redundancies.
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Old 14th Jul 2020, 07:13
  #765 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
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AJ previous comments few weeks ago regarding SH come back will be thrown out the window now. Domestic travel will be decimated past mid 2021 unless a vaccine is found. We are already seeing QLD rejection of certain NSW residents as the weeks gone NSW will more than double.
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Old 14th Jul 2020, 07:38
  #766 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SHVC View Post
AJ previous comments few weeks ago regarding SH come back will be thrown out the window now. Domestic travel will be decimated past mid 2021 unless a vaccine is found. We are already seeing QLD rejection of certain NSW residents as the weeks gone NSW will more than double.
Not a chance

European short haul airlines are already back at 50% capacity by the first week of July, 3.5 months after the pandemic first hit in Europe and a few weeks after travel restrictions started being lifted.

Chinese domestic airlines are at about 80% capacity now compared to 6 months ago when the pandemic started and about two months after travel restrictions were lifted.

Japanís domestic carriers are back at 66% capacity by end of the month, 80% in August and JAL expects to be at 100% in October.

These spikes will delay travel recovery in the domestic market by a matter of weeks not til the end of next year.

Of course thatís short haul only, solely long haul widebody carriers arenít faring as well, EK is at 17% and SQ 5%
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Old 14th Jul 2020, 08:08
  #767 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Originally Posted by tenretni View Post
Your notion that all the affected pilots then have to do is go on LWOP to avoid redundancy is plain WRONG.
Well that information is incorrect. The company will be using the clause in the EBA that allows them to bypass seniority for CR.

A firm warning for anyone who thinks they are too senior to avoid CR. It will not save you. CR is coming and the vast majority below you will be taking LWOP to avoid it. Plan wisely.
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Old 14th Jul 2020, 08:58
  #768 (permalink)  
 
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I’m hearing you Dr, I’m not disagreeing but I’m sure you’re intelligent enough to realize that every time there is an outbreak or hotspot there will be lockdowns rumored VIC going to stage 4 tomorrow, states continuing to not allow NSW/VIC and ACT. I will be shocked if QLD don’t close to NSW residents by weeks end I hope I’m wrong.

Europe still do t have it under control however they see the bigger picture Australian Gov do not.
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Old 14th Jul 2020, 09:00
  #769 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by normanton View Post
Well that information is incorrect. The company will be using the clause in the EBA that allows them to bypass seniority for CR.

A firm warning for anyone who thinks they are too senior to avoid CR. It will not save you. CR is coming and the vast majority below you will be taking LWOP to avoid it. Plan wisely.
I think you are perpetuating fear amongst junior crew unnecessary.There is a general consensus that the surplus will be taken care of with VR. IF there is a further surplus before 2022, do you really think TLS & Co will still be promoting being passed over? They may not. And those on LWOP will be exposed the same as the rest. It’s at the companies discretion.

You are speculating, yet you tell it like you know. You are influencing people’s lives and livelihoods. Please be careful.
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Old 14th Jul 2020, 09:05
  #770 (permalink)  
 
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I disagree. If anything I am trying to save the livelihood of many.

The bypass of seniority for CR will be covered for the duration of the LWOP. So if another surplus happens in 2022 as you said, you will again be passed over.

If your stance is not to take LWOP, I would say be careful of the advice youíre providing as it will affect the livelihood of many junior crew.
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Old 14th Jul 2020, 09:28
  #771 (permalink)  
 
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do people seriously think TLS, DT, DA, AS etc say this stuff about SH being excluded based on something theyíve made up? QF know exactly what they can do. They have done their homework. We all thought they would t get away with a lot of stuff over the years, but they have. If they say they can skip SH, skip LWOP etc etc, then they are saying based on immensely detailed research and legal consultation. Itís not like those blokes sit there (like we do) and read the various documents and then come up with an opinion. They have been fully briefed on what can and will be done. They (especially DT) would know EXACTLY what kind of a response their position would illicit, they know we all think itís based on a global list etc. If they say itís not, then until I see something from AIPA or a successful challenge in court, I have to assume they know what they are talking about. Anything else on here, or on QR is simply the best intended but uninformed opinion of someone who has read the award and has instantly become a lawyer who knows exactly what FWA will do. (Add that to financial expert, sexual god, sky god, disease control expert, microbiologist, marriage counsellor, divorce lawyer, real estate agent, property investor, sailing expert, epidemiologist and most importantly, a grammar expert (which I am not))

this is a fight that no one wants to have. Whatever the outcome, it wonít be pretty. Hopefully CR will be completely avoided.
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Old 14th Jul 2020, 09:37
  #772 (permalink)  
 
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European short haul airlines are already back at 50% capacity by the first week of July, 3.5 months after the pandemic first hit in Europe and a few weeks after travel restrictions started being lifted.
This is because Europe is a lot larger than Australia and the majority of countries have no restriction for inter-European travel.

Chinese domestic airlines are at about 80% capacity now compared to 6 months ago when the pandemic started and about two months after travel restrictions were lifted.
The majority of Chinese airlines are state controlled and were instructed to ramp up capacity. The reality is their load factors are well below 50% and should we believe in everything that state propaganda publish?

Japan’s domestic carriers are back at 66% capacity by end of the month, 80% in August and JAL expects to be at 100% in October.
Japan's second wave of covid is nowhere near the same percentage as what Victoria is experiencing. Let's see how August and JALS predictions turn out........
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Old 14th Jul 2020, 09:43
  #773 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cloudsurfng View Post
do people seriously think TLS, DT, DA, AS etc say this stuff about SH being excluded based on something theyíve made up? QF know exactly what they can do. They have done their homework. We all thought they would t get away with a lot of stuff over the years, but they have. If they say they can skip SH, skip LWOP etc etc, then they are saying based on immensely detailed research and legal consultation. Itís not like those blokes sit there (like we do) and read the various documents and then come up with an opinion. They have been fully briefed on what can and will be done. They (especially DT) would know EXACTLY what kind of a response their position would illicit, they know we all think itís based on a global list etc. If they say itís not, then until I see something from AIPA or a successful challenge in court, I have to assume they know what they are talking about. Anything else on here, or on QR is simply the best intended but uninformed opinion of someone who has read the award and has instantly become a lawyer who knows exactly what FWA will do. (Add that to financial expert, sexual god, sky god, disease control expert, microbiologist, marriage counsellor, divorce lawyer, real estate agent, property investor, sailing expert, epidemiologist and most importantly, a grammar expert (which I am not))

this is a fight that no one wants to have. Whatever the outcome, it wonít be pretty. Hopefully CR will be completely avoided.
You are giving them way too much credit. They Ďmayí have a legal opinion but Until FWA rule on something like this, that is all that it is- a lawyers opinion. I suggest any worried crew pick up a phone and ask AIPA directly. As you say itís all uninformed opinion including yours.
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Old 14th Jul 2020, 09:51
  #774 (permalink)  
 
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Japans second wave of covid is nowhere near the same percentage as what Victoria is experiencing.
Just what are these percentages?

As of yesterday (13 July) Victoria has had a total of 3967 cases with 24 deaths. (population of 6.4 million)
Japan has had 21,868 cases with 982 deaths. (population of 126 million)

So Japan has twenty times the population of Victoria and forty times the deaths, five and a half times the cases.

https://www.health.gov.au/news/healt...d-case-numbers

https://www.worldometers.info/corona...country/japan/
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Old 14th Jul 2020, 10:12
  #775 (permalink)  
Keg

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Originally Posted by normanton View Post
CR is coming and the vast majority below you will be taking LWOP to avoid it. Plan wisely.
If the ‘vast majority’ of junior pilots take LWOP to avoid CR then the company’s cash burn goes to virtually $0 and/or those remaining are still able to do the required flying. Hence no more need for CR.

For crying out loud, sit on your freaking hands until the dust from the VR and early retirement settles and let AIPA do their job of negotiating what variations may be considered. We haven’t even finished the G part of the decision making process and you’re jumping to ‘decide’.

Or alternatively, put in for LWOP immediately. Your call!
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Old 14th Jul 2020, 10:26
  #776 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Keg View Post
I

For crying out loud, sit on your freaking hands until the dust from the VR and early retirement settles and let AIPA do their job of negotiating what variations may be considered. We haven’t even finished the G part of the decision making process and you’re jumping to ‘decide’.
If junior crew sit on our freaking hands and do nothing Keg, then by the time VR and early retirement results are out it's too late. This was mentioned multiple times today by people calling in.

Keg I always respect your opinion on this forum, but I feel your stance is easy to justify when you have seniority. If you were in your early 20s with 40 years left in your career at Qantas you would be looking at the situation differently.

I haven't submitted my LWOP application yet. As you alluded to I am still in the gather stage.

Originally Posted by Keg View Post
If the ‘vast majority’ of junior pilots take LWOP to avoid CR then the company’s cash burn goes to virtually $0 and/or those remaining are still able to do the required flying. Hence no more need for CR.
I don't agree with this. Apart from 330 freight there is no flying, and there won't be for a year. As mentioned in today's webinar the amount of people who take LWOP won't have an effect on CR as the company is seeing it as two separate issues, a long term surplus and a short-medium term surplus. By taking LWOP you avoid the CR chop if the early retirement / VR package doesn't get the numbers.
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Old 14th Jul 2020, 10:32
  #777 (permalink)  
Keg

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Iím sure if they send you a CR letter youíll still have time to ask for LWOP and Iím pretty confident theyíd grant it given that your LWOP request is a truck load cheaper than the 26 weeks theyíre going to pay you under CR.

If youíre thinking LWOP in the hope that someone senior gets CRíd, and therefore youíll come back off LWOP to fly before the CR pilot is re-employed, then you need to keep in mind that if enough pilots take LWOP then no one gets CRíd. Then as a LWOP pilot youíll come back when they need you- which will effectively be the same time as they would have re-recruited you if you were CRíd anyway. Except now you didnít get 6 months CR payout.
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Old 14th Jul 2020, 10:39
  #778 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone want to hazard a guess why LWOP applications to be Ďsparedí CR are REQUIRED before the VR and Early retirement program results are known? As Keg says above they want QF pilots to get to D before you consider the other letters. How do you that? Tell them itís an incontrollable Fire 🔥
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Old 14th Jul 2020, 10:45
  #779 (permalink)  
 
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normanton
First and foremost I acknowledge and respect your right to interpret the situation as you see it. Its just a little difficult to rationalise the concept of LWOP then no CR.
If the company makes LWOP available only to a select few then I dare say more senior pilots who have not been given that option would have something to say about it.
Tell me how that makes sense or how it would pass any test of reasonableness. The clause you refer to seems to give the company the OPTION to pass by a pilot. It is not mandated. No doubt you will get the proper advice from people in the know, as you should. All the best.
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Old 14th Jul 2020, 10:47
  #780 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Keg View Post
Iím sure if they send you a CR letter youíll still have time to ask for LWOP and Iím pretty confident theyíd grant it given that your LWOP request is a truck load cheaper than the 26 weeks theyíre going to pay you under CR.
And there is no guarantee they will accept that. Again, if they go to CR it's because they didn't get enough volunteers for the package. If they are offering to blow 12 months cash on a senior crew member, 26 weeks is nothing for a junior one. The EBA is clear in that it says you must take LWOP before the CR notices are issued.

Then as a LWOP pilot youíll come back when they need you- which will effectively be the same time as they would have re-recruited you if you were CRíd anyway. Except now you didnít get 6 months CR payout.
You will come back when your LWOP finishes (or earlier by mutual agreement). If there is still no flying, they will just stand you down again. You stay connected to the company and you don't have to put up with the HR pre-employment bullshit all over again.

6 moths CR payout gamble is nothing when we are talking about a 40 year career.
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