Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

C130 down NE Cooma

Old 28th Feb 2020, 08:52
  #301 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Originally Posted by industry insider View Post
This one was 30 minutes according to the ATSB report. Looks like it hadn't worked for some time. Probably not a "requirement" under the operational category in Australia so either U/S and deferred or made inop by the operator.
The US Forest Service requires tankers to have a CVR...
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Old 1st Mar 2020, 04:02
  #302 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
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Let the cover up begin. Nsw rfs 007 lincence to kill.
one can hope that an equiry is set to look at the nsw rfs and not just for this season but all. 3 fatal accidents that all good have been avoided.
this is the latest. Once again when just about all other aircraft were grounded due high winds this aircraft was flying. Its npw almost ceertain that the aircraft was lost due to an extreme tail wind and basically fall out of the sky and was carrying a load still on board. Down low heavy and a 40knot plus gusting winds over ranges and no recovery time. There was no need for the aircaft to be in this position at all and should have been on the ground. The silimlar thing happen to blacky when the wing left his aircraft. While everyone else was on the ground he was flying . The rfs guy before the accident said that the real pilots wet e flying that day.
the nsw rfs have written into there contracts agaist the act that they must report all incidents to them first and then they will decide if they will pass them onto Casa, this is clearly agaist the act. So basically if you report to casa dont tnink your contract will be on going. Classic stand over tatics.
ive been told that the nsw rfs commissioner was going to resign and now look at the fool. He has more ribbions and gold rope over himself if he feel over he would not be able to get up.
we havent even talk about the poor souls that lost their lifes in fire truck accidents being sent into fire with trucks not fit for purpose. Where are the industral laws now and hold him accountable for thier deaths.
not to mention how we are suppose to maintain aircraft at night in the middle of a paddock fir the next days actions and not allowed to remove an aircraft and replace it for like to like.
bring on the royal commission and lets look at it all.
the nsw rfs is plain and simple an emprie building in the most extreme. The commissioner is no hero at all and should under no circumstances be held up as such. He should be charged with industrial manslaughter but i wont hold my beath as he covered in teflon.
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Old 1st Mar 2020, 04:24
  #303 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
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Originally Posted by Connedrod View Post
Let the cover up begin. Nsw rfs 007 lincence to kill.
one can hope that an equiry is set to look at the nsw rfs and not just for this season but all. 3 fatal accidents that all good have been avoided.
this is the latest. Once again when just about all other aircraft were grounded due high winds this aircraft was flying. Its npw almost ceertain that the aircraft was lost due to an extreme tail wind and basically fall out of the sky and was carrying a load still on board. Down low heavy and a 40knot plus gusting winds over ranges and no recovery time. There was no need for the aircaft to be in this position at all and should have been on the ground. The silimlar thing happen to blacky when the wing left his aircraft. While everyone else was on the ground he was flying . The rfs guy before the accident said that the real pilots wet e flying that day.
the nsw rfs have written into there contracts agaist the act that they must report all incidents to them first and then they will decide if they will pass them onto Casa, this is clearly agaist the act. So basically if you report to casa dont tnink your contract will be on going. Classic stand over tatics.
ive been told that the nsw rfs commissioner was going to resign and now look at the fool. He has more ribbions and gold rope over himself if he feel over he would not be able to get up.
we havent even talk about the poor souls that lost their lifes in fire truck accidents being sent into fire with trucks not fit for purpose. Where are the industral laws now and hold him accountable for thier deaths.
not to mention how we are suppose to maintain aircraft at night in the middle of a paddock fir the next days actions and not allowed to remove an aircraft and replace it for like to like.
bring on the royal commission and lets look at it all.
the nsw rfs is plain and simple an emprie building in the most extreme. The commissioner is no hero at all and should under no circumstances be held up as such. He should be charged with industrial manslaughter but i wont hold my beath as he covered in teflon.
yeah right,

Are you the guy that hung out the window and told the PM off by any chance?
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Old 1st Mar 2020, 04:28
  #304 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SRFred View Post
No mention of a lead aircraft at the incident site nor the earlier Adaminiby Complex tasking.
Lead aircraft considered conditions not suitable for flying, C-130 went out on it's own.
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Old 1st Mar 2020, 05:42
  #305 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by red_dirt View Post
yeah right,

Are you the guy that hung out the window and told the PM off by any chance?
no i not but obviously have more of idea than yourself and having been involved for nearly 3 decades in arial firefighting ill but my inside knowledge against yours any day of the week.
dont you think it strange that all of the sudden the cvr decided not to work go figure !
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Old 1st Mar 2020, 05:50
  #306 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Super Cecil View Post
Lead aircraft considered conditions not suitable for flying, C-130 went out on it's own.
You obviously know something we don't but I did observe some of the VLTs dropping on a fire a few km from us without a lead aircraft. However the conditions were relatively calm and the fire was on a ridge top and they did a number of circuits presumably assessing before dropping and departing to reload.
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Old 1st Mar 2020, 05:55
  #307 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Connedrod View Post
dont you think it strange that all of the sudden the cvr decided not to work go figure
According to the ATSB, the CVR stopped working before the aircraft arrived in Australia.
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Old 1st Mar 2020, 06:02
  #308 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Connedrod View Post
Let the cover up begin. Nsw rfs 007 lincence to kill.
The silimlar thing happen to blacky when the wing left his aircraft. While everyone else was on the ground he was flying . The rfs guy before the accident said that the real pilots wet e flying that day.
That quote from the RFS bloke was a day earlier and was in a different base to Nowra where Balcky was flying from, it was a throw away line and was not said in malice or to belittle anybody.
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Old 1st Mar 2020, 06:26
  #309 (permalink)  
 
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Connedrod wrote:

So basically if you report to CASA don't think your contract will be on going. Classic stand over tactics.
If this is indeed true and I was the contractor, I would tell RFS to find their LAT fleet somewhere else. Its not like there is a huge number of experienced LAT providers.
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Old 1st Mar 2020, 07:32
  #310 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Connedrod View Post
Let the cover up begin. Nsw rfs 007 lincence to kill.
one can hope that an equiry is set to look at the nsw rfs and not just for this season but all. 3 fatal accidents that all good have been avoided.
this is the latest. Once again when just about all other aircraft were grounded due high winds this aircraft was flying. Its npw almost ceertain that the aircraft was lost due to an extreme tail wind and basically fall out of the sky and was carrying a load still on board. Down low heavy and a 40knot plus gusting winds over ranges and no recovery time. There was no need for the aircaft to be in this position at all and should have been on the ground. The silimlar thing happen to blacky when the wing left his aircraft. While everyone else was on the ground he was flying . The rfs guy before the accident said that the real pilots wet e flying that day.
the nsw rfs have written into there contracts agaist the act that they must report all incidents to them first and then they will decide if they will pass them onto Casa, this is clearly agaist the act. So basically if you report to casa dont tnink your contract will be on going. Classic stand over tatics.
ive been told that the nsw rfs commissioner was going to resign and now look at the fool. He has more ribbions and gold rope over himself if he feel over he would not be able to get up.
we havent even talk about the poor souls that lost their lifes in fire truck accidents being sent into fire with trucks not fit for purpose. Where are the industral laws now and hold him accountable for thier deaths.
not to mention how we are suppose to maintain aircraft at night in the middle of a paddock fir the next days actions and not allowed to remove an aircraft and replace it for like to like.
bring on the royal commission and lets look at it all.
the nsw rfs is plain and simple an emprie building in the most extreme. The commissioner is no hero at all and should under no circumstances be held up as such. He should be charged with industrial manslaughter but i wont hold my beath as he covered in teflon.
Do you own a tin hat by any chance?
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Old 1st Mar 2020, 07:53
  #311 (permalink)  
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Connedrod. Please go to Blancolerio channel . Juan Brown on You tube. Juan is all over this and has been from the start. Today he posted the preliminary ATSB report, and is scathing ( as is many others ) as to why the aircraft was flying in those conditions. He has called for more support and will get it.

The wind on Sigmet was gusting to 39 kts . severe turbulence and mountain waves below 10000 ft . I have respect for what they do , however there is one deficiency, and that is unfortunately they are not Ag pilots especially top dressing pilots that spend their lives in the lower altitudes 4 to 60 feet .Ag pilots appreciate the pending disaster that awaits or can await a tail wind drop.

A retardant drop should be approached as a landing that doesn't occur , stabilised approach and the go around before the approach is even entered , sometimes the load must go even if it's not in the correct position Down wind drops are ok in light wind conditions but never in those conditions. Part loads are like cleanup runs, potential killers.

Juan states that the nose of the aircraft wasn't raised, I think the reason was, he didn't drop a full load and was still heavy, and would have been at normal drop speed most likely adding a bit and was turning down wind finally with wind right up the tail. The airspeed would have been decaying rapidly and he would have been milking it in a high state of anxiety with the aircraft on the wrong side of the drag curve descending into rising ground.

The drop system was working immediately prior to the accident. Did the pressure make him keep the load. An Ag pilot would have let the load go at the first indication that all was not good.

Connedrod ,we have lost too many people due to pressure ,and incompetency and i totally understand where you are coming from. There are or will have to be major changes as to the way aircraft are operated , many operators will have to come forward now, forget your contracts , stand up for those that have lost their lives and their families. Flying low to the ground in those conditions is frightening , often control of the aircraft is lost and most if not all will experience this in their aerial fire fighting career. Early days pilot decisions were respected but as the use of the aircraft increased , bigger, more , the more authoritarian the fire service became.
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Old 1st Mar 2020, 08:22
  #312 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Connedrod View Post
no i not but obviously have more of idea than yourself and having been involved for nearly 3 decades in arial firefighting ill but my inside knowledge against yours any day of the week.
dont you think it strange that all of the sudden the cvr decided not to work go figure !
Erm...Arial is a font. Iím guessing aerial isnít a word you write very often.
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Old 1st Mar 2020, 08:49
  #313 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Just a Grunt View Post
Erm...Arial is a font. Iím guessing aerial isnít a word you write very often.
i am dyslexic so what is wrong in your eyes is right in mine or a typo. Ethier way you got what i was saying but instead of commenting on that you choose to show your even lower mentality to make a comment on spelling so in reality who is the fool.
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Old 1st Mar 2020, 08:55
  #314 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by industry insider View Post
Connedrod wrote:



If this is indeed true and I was the contractor, I would tell RFS to find their LAT fleet somewhere else. Its not like there is a huge number of experienced LAT providers.
when you invest in a aircraft or a fleet of aircraft you need to fly that aircraft to produce an income. We not talking now about toys here these aircraft are muti million dollar aircraft and now quite sophisticated so every flying hour you can get to cover your repayments insurance etc etc you take.
go get a contract if you dont believe me its all there in black and white.
like alot of ypu your all been hood winked by the nsw rfs. But when your been involved with it all and no the truth it all changes. L
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Old 1st Mar 2020, 10:22
  #315 (permalink)  
 
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the nsw rfs have written into there contracts agaist the act that they must report all incidents to them first and then they will decide if they will pass them onto Casa, this is clearly agaist the act. So basically if you report to casa dont tnink your contract will be on going. Classic stand over tatics.
I know nothing of the RFS or aerial firefighting, but as an airline pilot I am just pointing out that it is commonplace for airlines that have a CASA approved Safety Management System in place for any ASIRís to be submitted to the Company first, and only those reports which are required to be forwarded to the authorities will be (by the Company).

If that is the system in place in the RFS, then it is probably not a breach of the Act, in fact it is normal for many significant AOC holders,

CASA audits the Safety Management System of the AOC holder rather than micro-managing every report. I think this is regarded as something like ďself-regulation with oversightĒ rather than ďbig brother watching your every moveĒ. Iíve submitted a fair few ASIRís to my Company over the decades, and they usually respond as to whether they have deemed the report ATSB reportable and have forwarded it accordingly.

If the RFS is not forwarding reports which should be forwarded, then that is a different story, but you havenít suggested that to be the case.
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Old 1st Mar 2020, 13:17
  #316 (permalink)  
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CASA approved Safety Management System
I believe RFS contracts the aircraft from operators who hold an AOC.
The AOC holder would have the SMS.
The RFS should have no control over how that SMS is structured.
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Old 1st Mar 2020, 14:00
  #317 (permalink)  
 
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Connedrod

when you invest in a aircraft or a fleet of aircraft you need to fly that aircraft to produce an income. We not talking now about toys here these aircraft are muti million dollar aircraft and now quite sophisticated so every flying hour you can get to cover your repayments insurance etc etc you take.
go get a contract if you dont believe me its all there in black and white.
like alot of ypu your all been hood winked by the nsw rfs. But when your been involved with it all and no the truth it all changes.
Thanks for the lesson.

I have been involved in aviation contracts as a responder and writing them as a client for 30 years. In my experience with similar contracts in VIC, these contracts are based on a fixed daily / weekly / monthly charge which covers the fixed costs and a flying hour charge which covers the variable costs.
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Old 1st Mar 2020, 15:29
  #318 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 601 View Post
I believe RFS contracts the aircraft from operators who hold an AOC.
The AOC holder would have the SMS.
The RFS should have no control over how that SMS is structured.
I would have thought as much.

In which case any incident reports should be forwarded to the AOC holder, not the RFS, as claimed required by Connedrod. So who is mis-quoting or wrong?

Connedrod, if you have been fighting fires by air for decades as claimed, hats off to you. Please stay safe and keep it up.


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Old 1st Mar 2020, 18:56
  #319 (permalink)  
 
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The AOC holder is directly accountable to the ATSB and CASA with regards to the lodgement of incident and accident reports, not the client.

In most cases corporate clients will do their own independent investigation if they have the expertise within, however from my experience most of the client based investigations are conduct to identify contract compliance deficiencies which generally utilise different standards (mostly higher) than the CASA standards - rules. The corporate clients can do this as they are paying the big dollars for higher levels of safety.
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Old 1st Mar 2020, 21:10
  #320 (permalink)  
 
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I found the RFS to be very safety conscious, in at least employing us out of state helpers and our trucks. My opinion is that they could use a few new trucks and some more gear and facilities based on what I saw where I was - which was the central coast fires.
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