Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

AFAP go rogue

Old 20th Jan 2019, 02:55
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 8
AFAP go rogue

Iím hearing the AFAP have gone rogue with their Jetstar negotiations. Over the top claims including a large percentage increase to exceed shorthaul rates, equivalent 787 pay, staff travel priority higher than mainline amongst other things. Looks like they are deliberately picking a fight. Do the Jetstar guys think they can successfully fight Qantas?
Cesspool182 is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2019, 03:41
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: sydney
Posts: 660
Hope they give the pricks a blood nose.
dragon man is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2019, 03:53
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 323
I hope they get it (except for the staff travel ) Pushing terms and conditions up across the industry is good for everyone.
Beer Baron is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2019, 03:53
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 426
I guess the JQ guys are sick of being paid and treated so poorly despite contributing fairly to the QF Group’s overwhelming profitability.

Working (roughly) a third harder for two-thirds the remuneration would get you down after a while. So would being treated as a second class citizen on QF aircraft when it comes to duty and staff travel despite having no similar advantage on a JQ aircraft. (Yes...economy on duty travel even internationally if there are no J seats!)

No minimum daily credit on long haul, constant 4 sector day abuse on short haul, no credit for standby, no pattern protection, sub-standard loss of licence insurance and sick leave provisions, lack of preferential bid and open time systems, appalling annual leave system, sub-standard hotels, inedible and unhealthy inflight catering....I could go on and on!!!

There’s only so many times you can kick a dog before it bites back.

I have no inside knowledge but I genuinely wish the Jetstar (and Tiger) pilot group all the best in their fight for fair and reasonable conditions that will allow an income and lifestyle closer to an industry average rather than barrel bottom scraping.

PG

Last edited by Popgun; 20th Jan 2019 at 04:25.
Popgun is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2019, 04:16
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: where ever they tell me
Posts: 90
So when they signed their contracts agreeing to the above terms they where happy with them... but now they are not? Maybe they shouldnít have signed the initial contracts, itís not like they have lowered the pay.....
OCTA is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2019, 04:24
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: AUS
Posts: 80
At least they have a log of claims, the silence from the AIPA camp is deafening!
Ted Nugent is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2019, 04:33
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Alan's Handbag
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by OCTA View Post
So when they signed their contracts agreeing to the above terms they where happy with them... but now they are not? Maybe they shouldnít have signed the initial contracts, itís not like they have lowered the pay.....
Great. Yet another person negotiating against themselves... Instead of trying to better their contact why donít they just donate it all to Alan hey OCTA?
sled is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2019, 04:38
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 426
Whatís that smell?

Originally Posted by OCTA View Post
So when they signed their contracts agreeing to the above terms they where happy with them... but now they are not? Maybe they shouldnít have signed the initial contracts, itís not like they have lowered the pay.....
What an arrogantly, ill conceived, pompous comment.

There was quite an extended period in this country where the only major companies hiring were Jetstar and Tiger. Not everyone had the good fortune and lucky timing to land a premier gold QF mainline or silver Virgin gig.

In this industry and in this country most people need to take the first major jet job they get offered in order to get on a seniority list and start paying the mortgage and feeding the family.

PG
Popgun is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2019, 04:57
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 35
So when they signed their contracts agreeing to the above terms they where happy with them... but now they are not? Maybe they shouldn’t have signed the initial contracts, it’s not like they have lowered the pay.....
Most of us (including the negotiating team) were not here at the start and did not sign the initial contract (2004), from which many of those original conditions still remain today.

Regarding why did we accept employment under such a contract, read the previous post from popgun.

We all knew it wasn't legacy pay and conditions (Qantas), but it was still a decent payrise from my job in GA, and maybe the only once in a life time opportunity to join an airline and fly a jet, especially in Australia. QF were not hiring at the time, otherwise some people missed out or didn't have the requirements, and Virgin depended on how many blue stars you could get. The only other option was to go overseas. What else was I supposed to do ? Remain in GA on less pay ?

Once pilots join an airline, even if not ideal conditions at the time, it does not mean don't ever stop fighting for better improved conditions.

Last edited by a_pilot; 20th Jan 2019 at 05:14.
a_pilot is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2019, 05:09
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: where ever they tell me
Posts: 90
A-Pilot - so you work for Jetstar? If so you signed a contract agreeing to the terms of the offer of employment. If anyone didnít like this terms they they didnít have a gun held against their head to sign them. Hey more money is great but if you accepted the terms you shouldnít expect the terms to be significantly changed 12 months later (or whatever the EBA length is) Sure expect an increase as per inflation but why would you expect to get anything else?

Pop Gun - so do you eat at McDonaldís and expect fine dining? You work for Jetstar not Qantas so expect to be treated as the low cost step brother even if you do make mum more money.
OCTA is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2019, 05:16
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 840
Originally Posted by OCTA View Post
So when they signed their contracts agreeing to the above terms they where happy with them... but now they are not? Maybe they shouldnít have signed the initial contracts, itís not like they have lowered the pay.....
Well, first of all, they didn't sign a contract, they accepted an offer of employment, which would have stated that the applicable workplace agreement (as varied from time to time) would apply. And now it's time to vary it.

And they probably accepted the job offer because it was the best one available at the time and they needed to feed their family and hoped to advance their career. That doesn't mean they were happy with it.

Enshrined in law in this country is the scope to improve a workplace agreement through collective bargaining, which is what is happening now, and is what happens all over the country, all the time. And every time, people like you make complete fools of themselves in public.
Derfred is online now  
Old 20th Jan 2019, 05:21
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 35
OCTA..

I say again
Once pilots join an airline, even if not ideal conditions at the time, it does not mean don't ever stop fighting for better improved conditions
As Defred said, this is exactly what EBA negotiating is about.

In the same way as management are always trying to get more from us/the company (and they get rewarded with KPI's, bonuses, etc...), the pilots naturally want more (a better deal) from the company too.

Last edited by a_pilot; 20th Jan 2019 at 05:41.
a_pilot is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2019, 05:29
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Melbourne
Age: 63
Posts: 52
Spot the management troll............
George Glass is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2019, 05:29
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: All over the Planet
Posts: 733
Sounds very much like an ambit claim for me - the usual farce that precedes all industrial negotiations. The IR people must be seen to be doing something to justify their existence.
Ken Borough is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2019, 05:31
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 426
Originally Posted by OCTA View Post

Pop Gun - so do you eat at McDonaldís and expect fine dining? You work for Jetstar not Qantas so expect to be treated as the low cost step brother even if you do make mum more money.
Both assumptions are incorrect.

But back to the main point...best of luck with your JQ EBA negotiations. I hope the pilot group can remain cohesive and determined in order to fight hard for a fair outcome.

PG
Popgun is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2019, 05:48
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 66
Hmmm... Can we agree, from an economic perspective that the contract you signed up to is what you are "worth"? So you know what they're going to say right... What are you willing to give up to get these things?

1. ...being treated as a second class citizen on QF aircraft when it comes to duty and staff travel despite having no similar advantage on a JQ aircraft: Actual QF employees are treated like second-class citizens so I guess you mean third-class. There's an order - every manager worldwide then everyone else. You can have the advantage on JQ if you want!
2. No minimum daily credit on long haul: QF SH don't have this
3. Constant 4 sector day abuse on short haul: sounds like another day at QF SH
4. No pattern protection: be careful what you wish for. Want to have your entire roster up-ended in week 1 and owe them for your entire rosters? I guarantee you'll drop the hours; or you won't and then complain about it to everyone anyway.
5. Sub-standard... ...sick leave provisions: sounds pretty QF-like
6. Lack of preferential bid and open time systems: I guess this is part of the contract you signed. What will you give up for this?
7. Appalling annual leave system: yep, just like QF
8. Sub-standard hotels: if QF pilots spend half their lives in shitholes (London, LA etc.) then I imagine the LCC ones can't be great; and
9. Inedible and unhealthy inflight catering: didn't you guys vote out meals??

Now, this said - I'm all for going hard and good luck to anyone who gets the absolute best terms and conditions possible. But these are the realities of where we're at, no? What if JQ wasn't a part of the QF group, would you still be expecting all this stuff? Imagine telling a Ryanair, Veulig or other LCC pilot that you can get J seats on QF when you pax around! Hell, closer to home I reckon there would be a couple hundred VA pilots that would be keen on this..!

Until there a huge levels of parked JQ aircraft around Australia and SE Asia/NZ then nothing will change. All they need is 50% plus 1 and there will always be enough that sell out for a slightly above CPI cash injection (or even worse, one-off bonus).
ConfigFull is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2019, 05:51
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Shire
Posts: 2,885
The troops are angry and ready for a fight from what I can see.

Good luck.
The Green Goblin is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2019, 06:05
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: sydney
Posts: 660
4. No pattern protection: be careful what you wish for. Want to have your entire roster up-ended in week 1 and owe them for your entire rosters? I guarantee you'll drop the hours; or you won't and then complain about it to everyone anyway”

In long haul there are two parts to this, firstly produce a medical certificate for the duration of the pattern and there is no pattern protection,secondly you can drop the balance of the pattern protection unpaid. It’s a good system IMO.
dragon man is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2019, 06:18
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Elysium
Posts: 40
These AFAP claims are 100% aimed at recruiting more members. Nothing else. The AFAP knows these claims will never be agreed to by Jetstar in a million years, even in the face of threatened or actual industrial action.
Justin. Beaver is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2019, 06:51
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: In da Big Smoke
Posts: 2,249
Originally Posted by OCTA View Post
If anyone didnít like this terms they they didnít have a gun held against their head to sign them. Hey more money is great but if you accepted the terms you shouldnít expect the terms to be significantly changed 12 months later (or whatever the EBA length is) Sure expect an increase as per inflation but why would you expect to get anything else?
What if the employment market has changed since the last EBA? Would you still go and ask for CPI even though it is a below market salary? End of the day you get paid what you negotiate nothing more nothing less. If you are in a stronger bargaining position than the company you can expect to get a better deal. Whether this is the case or not is yet to be seen.
neville_nobody is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.