Clifford gone/ Goyder Next Chairman
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Was it not the case that vertical promotion was only restricted for the initial 8 787s?
Vertical promotion remains restricted on A380/747 SO to FO.
SO pay is so low on the 787 that it makes it well worth a move to 737 so can’t see anyone hanging around on the 787 as an SO.
Heard from a manager that Qantas 787 tech crew costs are less than half that of a US airline crew given they have
2 CPTs and 2 FOs on long haul routes and are paid more in rank also.
Vertical promotion remains restricted on A380/747 SO to FO.
SO pay is so low on the 787 that it makes it well worth a move to 737 so can’t see anyone hanging around on the 787 as an SO.
Heard from a manager that Qantas 787 tech crew costs are less than half that of a US airline crew given they have
2 CPTs and 2 FOs on long haul routes and are paid more in rank also.
Was it not the case that vertical promotion was only restricted for the initial 8 787s?
Whatever your feelings on the rule, I can’t think of a worse possible time to remove it than now. There are guys who will have been in the back seat and not landed a plane in 16 years (due in large part to the massive erosion in career opportunities caused by Qantas strategy) and may now move onto a type as FO where they might only do 1-2 landing a month! How do you consolidate your training and get comfortable flying again under those circumstances?
This push to scrap the rule is cynical penny pinching.
When the ban on vertical promotion came in, you couldn’t promote to FO 744 because of the sector lengths and low landings per month. You could, however, promote to the classic 743 and do endless blank/reserve. After your training freeze period you could then go to the 744. 
Thought you would be running the place by now Rup old boy . Hope to see you at the event beginning of Dec and we can talk take over strategy then 
No, albeit that was a common misconception. There was a blanket restriction on all promotion (SO -> FO and FO -> Capt) for the first 4 787’s however the vertical promotion restriction for SO’s is in the TACM and applies to all the 787’s (until they scrap the rule).
Whatever your feelings on the rule, I can’t think of a worse possible time to remove it than now. There are guys who will have been in the back seat and not landed a plane in 16 years (due in large part to the massive erosion in career opportunities caused by Qantas strategy) and may now move onto a type as FO where they might only do 1-2 landing a month! How do you consolidate your training and get comfortable flying again under those circumstances?
This push to scrap the rule is cynical penny pinching.
Il add my two bobs worth. The 737 contract is at the moment so bad compared to long haul that the company struggles to get SOs to bid over there hence by banning vertical promotion they are forced there , the draw back from this is the current scenario where they stay for as short a time as possible and hence the training system can’t cope. I have flown with a number of x Virgin 737 FOs and there is no way they were going back to domestic flying.
Il add my two bobs worth. The 737 contract is at the moment so bad compared to long haul that the company struggles to get SOs to bid over there hence by banning vertical promotion they are forced there , the draw back from this is the current scenario where they stay for as short a time as possible and hence the training system can’t cope. I have flown with a number of x Virgin 737 FOs and there is no way they were going back to domestic flying.
Nunc est bibendum
With a 744 S/O RIN likely in the medium term perhaps lifting the vertical promotion prohibitin is about enticing some of the long term S/Os into the front of a 787 instead of displacing to S/O A380? I haven’t looked at the 744 S/O list to see how many that could apply to.
Of course, this only applies if there is a RIN...
That's exactly what this is about. Realistically, only about 15 744 SO's would be senior enough for a 787 slot. On the 744 SO list the bottom 22 are junior to the most junior 380 SO, leaving the other 86 able to displace. A bloodbath it will be, say Yoda.
Of course, this only applies if there is a RIN...
Of course, this only applies if there is a RIN...
Add in the FOs and Capts who can also RIN to the 380 and Houston we have a problem.
Nunc est bibendum
Not as many as you’d think. Only 30-35 Captains. I haven’t looked at F/O numbers though I’d suspect they’d be similar.
Of those 86 others ruprecht, have you looked at where the crossover is? IE most senior displaces most junior, next most senior displaces second most junior, etc. At some stage there is a crossover and the 744 S/O can’t displace anyone.
Of those 86 others ruprecht, have you looked at where the crossover is? IE most senior displaces most junior, next most senior displaces second most junior, etc. At some stage there is a crossover and the 744 S/O can’t displace anyone.
The 380 SO list is down from 125 this roster to 115 next roster so I wouldn’t be surprised if some more A380 SO positions are advertised/awarded.
Nunc est bibendum
Yes. That’s possible. It’s also why I’d be stunned if they did multiple RINs for exactly that reason.
Actually, a RIN of those they know don’t have seniority to displace could be on the cards. After that though multiple RINs cause significant additional pain. That’s why I reckon only one big RIN for Captains and F/Os and multiple RINs for S/Os only if they will avoid the scenario you’ve high lighted.
Actually, a RIN of those they know don’t have seniority to displace could be on the cards. After that though multiple RINs cause significant additional pain. That’s why I reckon only one big RIN for Captains and F/Os and multiple RINs for S/Os only if they will avoid the scenario you’ve high lighted.
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Yes. That’s possible. It’s also why I’d be stunned if they did multiple RINs for exactly that reason.
Actually, a RIN of those they know don’t have seniority to displace could be on the cards. After that though multiple RINs cause significant additional pain. That’s why I reckon only one big RIN for Captains and F/Os and multiple RINs for S/Os only if they will avoid the scenario you’ve high lighted.
Actually, a RIN of those they know don’t have seniority to displace could be on the cards. After that though multiple RINs cause significant additional pain. That’s why I reckon only one big RIN for Captains and F/Os and multiple RINs for S/Os only if they will avoid the scenario you’ve high lighted.
I agree there wil be only one RIN.
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Whilst Mr Goyder may be new to the post and although 'pilot stuff' not necessarily the purview of the Chair, what ought concern all with a direct or ancillary interest in QF: Is what else is being hidden?
A festering mess with respect to pilot recruitment, training and promotion( when sitting in plain view for decades) does not bode well.
Little Napoleon is known to have a filthy temper.
Unlike a master of any subject, where questions, challenges to method and approach are welcomed and debated, Little Napoleon has form as a dictator.
If Qantas cannot, despite self proclaimed 'transformation' get the basics right, what other stuff is hidden in the closet?
A festering mess with respect to pilot recruitment, training and promotion( when sitting in plain view for decades) does not bode well.
Little Napoleon is known to have a filthy temper.
Unlike a master of any subject, where questions, challenges to method and approach are welcomed and debated, Little Napoleon has form as a dictator.
If Qantas cannot, despite self proclaimed 'transformation' get the basics right, what other stuff is hidden in the closet?
Last edited by Rated De; 25th Oct 2018 at 11:05.
Many 747 Captains will go with the aircraft, some will go on year 4 money to the 787 in both Sydney and Brisbane. IMO probably about 20 might go to the 380.
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With all the talk of RIN, what if Qantas puts all the new 787s in Sydney, turn around and say no reduction in numbers, here are the redeployment vacancies you can bid for, what happens then? Cause that seems a lot cheaper than doing all these extra training courses.
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Not correct. Having quickly done the RIN in my head, the most senior 747 Capt. displacing the most junior 380 Capt. with a couple of assumptions(I know... but what else can you do, every Capt. wants to go to the 380 in SYD then the next lot want to go to 380 in MEL and nobody retires), the top 35 747 Capt. get a slot in SYD and the next 11 get a slot in MEL. 30 miss out and need to find another home.