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One pilot union for all Australian pilots.

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One pilot union for all Australian pilots.

Old 19th Apr 2018, 12:40
  #121 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
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He never had anything to do with AFAP in fact no doubt viewed them as those rotten capitalist bast#$ds.
That I don't doubt. The threat made would have been merely to kowtow we members, unfortunately for the AFAP the pilot who was our negotiator was a not long returned combat experienced aviator, as were a number of us, threats and stand over tactics were never going to work. The fiasco of the events less than a decade later was no surprise to us given our experience.
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Old 19th Apr 2018, 14:55
  #122 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Australia
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When I was first told about AFAP’s application to cover Qantas pilots I was told it was pushed by a group of AFAP members still bitter over historical feelings of injustice relating to AIPA.

I wasn’t inclined to believe this idea.

I read this thread trying to get to the true reason but no one on the AFAP side seemed prepared to explain the motive. One had to call AFAP to be told the big secret.

Fanciful notions of ‘unity’ and ‘mergers’ were floated as good natured reasons for the move.
On speaking directly to AFAP I was given a more believable, if disappointing, reason for the application.

However, the more posts I read from Don Diego about how the OSB deserted AFAP back in the day, to AIPA stealing Q-Link members in 2004, helping Virgin pilots create VIPA, turning their back on Impulse pilots, etc. etc. And how excited Don seems at the notion of payback for all of these perceived ills. The more I wonder if that initial reason I was given is in fact far more accurate than any put forward here.

There have been far more words typed about what terrible things AIPA has done to AFAP than anything to do with what benefits AFAP will bring to Qantas pilots. Very telling.
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 09:56
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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Benefits Beer Baron? Like what? What has the AFAP done lately that benefits pilots, specifically?
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 14:26
  #124 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
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BB, are you suggesting you reap what you sow?

Interesting perspective
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 14:38
  #125 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
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No, I’m suggesting that AFAP’s motives are more based on petty rivalry than advancing the interests of their members or the industry.

Your comment only reinforces that assumption.
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Old 21st Apr 2018, 09:34
  #126 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Australia
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Virginexcess, when AIPA changed their rules to cover Q regional pilots the pilots that they embarked on this for were not even their members, they had some dodgy "give us $50 now and the rest later" so there is a huge difference between then and now i.e. AFAP acting to retain it's existing members.
The bargaining power aspect is interesting, one would like to think that AIPA thought of this prior to the rule change and that if in fact there was any negative effect then they would not have proceeded. Then a few years later you could ditto VA, so either they don't consider having multiple unions covering the same group of employees in one business is counterproductive or they just don't care?? The latest stunt from their offshoot (VIPA) and the rule change there suggests to me the latter. The numbers are interesting and AFAP has considerably more members, and as I wrote earlier this is about giving those who wish to stay with AFAP the right to do so.
I am with you on the volunteer thing, it has had it's day. The notion of an umbrella type organisation is not without merit.
Beer Baron, that is just history, no hint of payback from me, too busy doing constructive things.
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Old 15th May 2018, 08:18
  #127 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Why applaud a trade union for making any type of maneuver? The only result will be one in the best interest of either AFAP or their opposition union(s). The sooner the industry is rid of unions and union minded pilots then the better the industry will be for all.
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Old 15th May 2018, 08:25
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lucerne View Post
The sooner the industry is rid of unions and union minded pilots then the better the industry will be for all.
Your name’s not O’Leary, by any chance?
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Old 15th May 2018, 10:20
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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"Your name’s not O’Leary, by any chance?"
No. No it's not.
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Old 15th May 2018, 10:28
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Strongly, strongly, STRONGLY disagree. You arent management are you Lucerne?
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Old 15th May 2018, 10:43
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chadzat View Post
Strongly, strongly, STRONGLY disagree. You arent management are you Lucerne?
No I'm not currently management.
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Old 15th May 2018, 10:57
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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Without getting into a unions vs no-unions thread drift here -

Why is it that in nearly every country with strong Pilot Unions the professions terms and conditions (and bonuses) are all going up strongly in this emerging global shortage.

Now look at some regions where Unions are banned or ineffective and what is happening at those companies? (Middle East, HK etc).

Unions may not be perfect but they do way more good than harm.
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Old 15th May 2018, 12:58
  #133 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Originally Posted by Lucerne View Post
Why applaud a trade union for making any type of maneuver? The only result will be one in the best interest of either AFAP or their opposition union(s). The sooner the industry is rid of unions and union minded pilots then the better the industry will be for all.
You must be drunk or seriously misinformed. Could you explain how the industry would be better off ? I like the way you say you are not “currently” in management ! Your intentions are clear.
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Old 15th May 2018, 13:38
  #134 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
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“Manoeuvre.”

Not that difficult to change your dictionary to English, rather than what Americans consider passes for it.
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Old 24th May 2018, 04:07
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chadzat View Post
Without getting into a unions vs no-unions thread drift here -

Why is it that in nearly every country with strong Pilot Unions the professions terms and conditions (and bonuses) are all going up strongly in this emerging global shortage.

Now look at some regions where Unions are banned or ineffective and what is happening at those companies? (Middle East, HK etc).

Unions may not be perfect but they do way more good than harm.
In a way you have answered your own question here. You have referenced the increasing remuneration levels in the same sentence in which you have also referenced the increasing global pilot shortage. Market forces are currently allowing flight crew some bargaining power albeit limited by an equally increasing competitive, in many cases, market. This is also occurring in sectors of the aviation industry where unions do not participate and/or for flight crew who do not belong to a union. A number of these sectors do not operate in parallel to schedules as those of the airlines or similar sectors where unions allegedly determine the status quo.

If that is not the case in the Middle East or HK there are obviously flight crew showing a propensity to continue their availability within a workplace where financial reward is flowing at less than its potential. They are not negotiating effectively. This is the same phenomenon as those scenarios where newly licensed pilots render their services available for a reward in 'flying hours' as opposed to financial reward.

I don't agree at all with your last comment "Unions may not be perfect but they do way more good than harm". Many thousands of workers involved in what used to be Australia's car manufacturing industry would now be beginning to question that view. The smart ones would be at least. They too experienced "professions terms and conditions (and bonuses) are all going up strongly" until they were negotiated out of an industry by their 'illustrious' union representatives.

I firmly believe that unions inflict a great deal more harm than good upon both their members and the industries in which they participate.
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Old 24th May 2018, 04:13
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by benttrees View Post


You must be drunk or seriously misinformed. Could you explain how the industry would be better off ? I like the way you say you are not “currently” in management ! Your intentions are clear.
I don't believe I am misinformed at all and I am certainly not drunk. The industry would be far better off without the destructive influence of unions. The individual's remuneration and conditions could be negotiated far more relevantly and effectively by that individual without a union representative 'spitting poison' throughout the operations in question.

My intentions are my own. I firmly doubt that you have a clear picture of what they are at all.
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Old 24th May 2018, 04:15
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by IsDon View Post
“Manoeuvre.”

Not that difficult to change your dictionary to English, rather than what Americans consider passes for it.
Clearly you have assumed that I am not American.
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Old 24th May 2018, 04:24
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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Your last 3 posts are just absolute rubbish Lucerne. You ave obviously never tried to negotiate your own contract with an aviation company individually before. I can tell you from experience that in a profession where there is very little to really set you apart from another pilot in the same rank (in terms of what you can bring to the company different to another guy doing exactly the same job) you are negotiating from a position of very very little power.

You seem to to live in a Utopian world where apparently company’s and employees bargain at a table that is fair and just and each party respects the other one! Rubbish......
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Old 24th May 2018, 06:27
  #139 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Originally Posted by Lucerne View Post
The industry would be far better off without the destructive influence of unions. The individual's remuneration and conditions could be negotiated far more relevantly and effectively by that individual without a union representative 'spitting poison' throughout the operations in question.
If you mean by 'the industry', airlines you would be correct. No Union/Individual contract would see poorly remunerated, loosely defined contracts handed out on a 'take it or leave it' basis. They would take advantage of the massive cashed-up Australian Expat workforce who would take the contracts just to get home. Then they would target foreigners and those with work visas, then they will hit up the government for some imported labour.
All ranks and jobs would be viewed in isolation and to get promoted you would probably have to move airlines (and city) to gain experience at a lower pay level. Then you would have to compete with expats to get a jet command somewhere. Basically it will just become Australia GA on a grand scale with bigger aircraft and imported labour. You would also see little Cabals develop and move around the industry together, as someone gets a management gig they bring along all their mates from XYZ airline or the RAAF.

By scrapping Union contracts you would just create a massive glut in the short term and no incentive for anyone to be a pilot in the long term. Not to mention all the nepotism, commercial pressure etc that would go along with a non seniority based system.
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Old 24th May 2018, 06:49
  #140 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
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Individual Contracts...pfffftttt.
Lucerne, please define "relevant" and "effective" that you mentioned in your post.
Please also define "spitting poison".
If you are not currently in Management ie you used to be, or will be, you should be able to clearly define all three of these in the context of negotiating with Unions.
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