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One pilot union for all Australian pilots.

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Old 6th Apr 2018, 02:38
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One pilot union for all Australian pilots.

The AFAP has applied to change its coverage rules to once again cover all Australian pilots. One pilot union for all Australian pilots, coverage from cradle to the grave; Student, GA, Aeromed, Charter, Rotary, Regional Airline, Domestic Airline, International Airline. Well done to the AFAP, let’s hope the legal shenanigans from AIPA don’t derail the unification process. Progress at last.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 03:11
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I seem to remember that them being a Union for all meant looking after the airlines while screwing GA.

As an example they were instrumental in a non-airline operation, Cargo Masters, going out if business as it was perceived as a threat to the airlines- in spite of Cargo-masters pilots being AFAP members.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 03:16
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Originally Posted by Wear the Foxhat View Post
The AFAP has applied to change its coverage rules to once again cover all Australian pilots. One pilot union for all Australian pilots, coverage from cradle to the grave; Student, GA, Aeromed, Charter, Rotary, Regional Airline, Domestic Airline, International Airline. Well done to the AFAP, let’s hope the legal shenanigans from AIPA don’t derail the unification process. Progress at last.
On the other hand, Ausalpa already exists as a joint venture and AIPA has coverage of many Australian pilots who are reasonably satisfied.
Why do AFAP want to start any “legal shenanigans”? (I presume they want the subscriptions from all those rich Qantas pilots!)
I think you will find this is a divisive rather than inclusive move.

I for one was an AFAP member a long time ago (well before “that year” so not involved with those “shenanigans”)
and will never be a member of them again for a number of reasons and will therefore back any AIPA moves to counter this.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 04:04
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I would join TWU before I would join AFAP.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 04:24
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And there you have it.

Unions like the CFMEU, UFU (Fire fighters), MUA, etc, get more for their workers and broker some pretty amazing deals.

The reasons why these unions broker good deals is that a union is only as good as it's members. Strong union members = strong union.

PISS WEAK MEMBERS = PISS WEAK UNIONS!

Pilots get onto Prune and lament how T&C's are constantly being eroded, threatened by lower cost entities, etc, and then bleat about how their union 'does nothing about it', and how it's all the 'mean managements' fault.

When someone posts about something along the lines of "let's get the unions together" or "let's have one pilot union" the first three responses (and I'm guessing around 90% of the future ones) will be how it's such a bad idea, and stick the boot into the AFAP for good measure (love how the examples used to justify this are from over 30 years ago).

All the pilot unions are weak, because pilots are piss-weak themselves.

DIVOSH!
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 04:44
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After also being a member of the AFAP many years ago I would also go nowhere near them again.

Hopeless!

AIPA have coverage of over 95% of Qantas Pilots. They have industrial strength as a result. Decry AIPA if you like, but Qantas Pilots have the best airline agreement in this country and that didn’t happen by accident.

This move by the AFAP is just out of greed. They see what AIPA have achieved and want part of it. Just go away you useless lot and leave us with a union we’re happy with.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 04:53
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What a cracker of a reply Di Vosh!
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 05:16
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Folks,
There were overwhelmingly good reasons why the Overseas Branch of the AFAP broke away, at huge cost, to form AIPA.
Many of those reasons are also the reasons for AIPA's success.
The '89 debacle only reinforced the wisdom of the reasons for the formation of AIPA.
Sadly, many of the attitudes that resulted in the OSB split and '89 have not really changed, all these years later, and industrially, there is no even a half way good reason, let alone a compelling reason, for AFAP to be granted any kind of sole coverage of pilots.
And, I would dare to suggest, it is a political non-starter.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 09:30
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Originally Posted by IsDon View Post
After also being a member of the AFAP many years ago I would also go nowhere near them again.

Hopeless!

AIPA have coverage of over 95% of Qantas Pilots. They have industrial strength as a result. Decry AIPA if you like, but Qantas Pilots have the best airline agreement in this country and that didn’t happen by accident.

This move by the AFAP is just out of greed. They see what AIPA have achieved and want part of it. Just go away you useless lot and leave us with a union we’re happy with.
I don’t want to get into a slinging match however it was under the AFAP in the 1960s that the Qantas pilots got a North American style seniority based contract. It is under AIPA that the appalling (personal opinion only) deal for the 787 was done which will IMO haunt Qantas pilots for years to come.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 09:42
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I believe AFAP has too much historical baggage to go forwards .
There needs to be a fresh start.
Using AUSALPA as a base for this fresh start has merit I believe.
However no point in going down this road if past errors are perpetuated.
Whatever the new constitution proposes , and there has to be a new constitution to prevent history repeating , is it needs a proportional representation clause that combines numbers and financial input for example.
Will be interesting to see where this discussion goes considering the belligerence of some of the old war horses involved.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 10:01
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There once was just one union that represented all Australian airline pilots. There was only one prolonged industrial action conducted by that union and that was to support QF pilots. The latter, after achieving their objectives, left the union and formed their own. Enough said!!
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 10:32
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So how many of you have been long term members of BOTH unions?
If you have not, then, respectively, you have no idea.

The 66 dispute was indeed run by the AFAP, but I would think the “overseas branch” would have had a fair bit of input.
Before my time.

Perhaps AIPA should have complete coverage, that would support your idea of
“One union”.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 12:09
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Originally Posted by Tankengine View Post
So how many of you have been long term members of BOTH unions?
If you have not, then, respectively, you have no idea.
I’ve been a member of both unions, AIPA in the past, and now AFAP.

Originally Posted by Tankengine View Post
AIPA has coverage of many Australian pilots who are reasonably satisfied.
So long as they work for Qantas – Plenty of Jetstar pilots are incensed with AIPA’s meddling in Jetstar. They do have their useful idiots on the subcommittee who have absolutely no control over the direction of the COM, but continue to wave the AIPA flag, running interference for them, and letting their spies into Jetstar meetings.

How many court cases did AIPA run (and lose) trying to prevent Jetstar expanding into A320’s, Expanding into A330’s, Expanding into an international airline, etc etc etc.

You would be hard pressed to find a union that has been and still is more anti Jetstar than AIPA. Any time Jetstar expansion is on the cards, the venom dripping from AIPA is barely suppressed. Every meeting that AIPA goes to in Jetstar, the details are studiously reported back to the AIPA COM to disseminate, understand, strategise, and plan counter moves. And Rated De thinks AIPA doesn’t strategise.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 13:10
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Well done to the AFAP, let’s hope the legal shenanigans from AIPA don’t derail the unification process.
Oh please, what a crock. ‘Unification process’????
AFAP has not made an application to ‘unify’ the Australian pilot unions. They did not approach AIPA and offer to work together and begin a process of becoming a singular union. No, they are making a desperate attempt to snatch members away from AIPA, not for the benefit of those members but for the benefit of AFAP.

They are starting a war between unions in a time of peace. Fighting the wrong enemy. This is NOT how you ‘unify’ pilots.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 13:12
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Originally Posted by leakyboats View Post
I’ve been a member of both unions, AIPA in the past, and now AFAP.



So long as they work for Qantas – Plenty of Jetstar pilots are incensed with AIPA’s meddling in Jetstar. They do have their useful idiots on the subcommittee who have absolutely no control over the direction of the COM, but continue to wave the AIPA flag, running interference for them, and letting their spies into Jetstar meetings.

How many court cases did AIPA run (and lose) trying to prevent Jetstar expanding into A320’s, Expanding into A330’s, Expanding into an international airline, etc etc etc.

You would be hard pressed to find a union that has been and still is more anti Jetstar than AIPA. Any time Jetstar expansion is on the cards, the venom dripping from AIPA is barely suppressed. Every meeting that AIPA goes to in Jetstar, the details are studiously reported back to the AIPA COM to disseminate, understand, strategise, and plan counter moves. And Rated De thinks AIPA doesn’t strategise.
Sounds like even more reasons to stick with AIPA!
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 13:12
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How many court cases did AIPA run (and lose) trying to prevent Jetstar expanding into A320’s, Expanding into A330’s,
Zero.

Show us a link to any of these cases you refer to.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 15:37
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There was only one prolonged industrial action conducted by that union and that was to support QF pilots. The latter, after achieving their objectives, left the union and formed their own. Enough said!!
56P,
That is quite wrong, you should do your homework.

There were multiple reasons for the split, but most came under the heading of domestic pilots being technical troglodytes, which, in many matters has not changed much, cf opposition to ICAO harmonisation, particularly in CNS/ATM matters --- just some of the changes domestic pilots opposed: glass cockpits, two pilot crews on "jets", flexible thrust on takeoff, LNAV/VNAV and moving maps for arrival and departure, wet runway V1, and, of course demanded flight engineers on any aircraft with more than 100 seats (remember Ansett B767)--- including domestic strike action you have forgotten -- or never knew.

As for "the AFAP" producing the NA style contract out of the 1966 dispute, that was the Overseas Branch (which became AIPA) and a lot of the actions of the then (domestic) President were quite counter-productive --- I know, as a junior pilot is cost me a bleeding lot, over years. The "final settlement" left most of us worse off than the QF final offer that he knocked back, and about half of us more junior F/O-S/O worse off than pre-strike conditions. All the hard work, including members personally guaranteeing the funds to get stranded crews home from around the world was OSB members, nobody else.

The split came along years after the 1966 strike. The AFAP constitution was very lopsided, the OSB members provided about 60% of the funds for less than 20% of the vote at Convention, which was completely dominated by Ansett pilots.

Deleted.
Yep!!, that's pretty much the attitude of too many domestic pilots, it has changed little over the years, comes from working in the aviation Galapagos in Australia.

Tootle pip!!
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 20:08
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Originally Posted by LeadSled View Post
The '89 debacle only reinforced the wisdom of the reasons for the formation of AIPA.
Sadly, many of the attitudes that resulted in the OSB split and '89 have not really changed, all these years later, and industrially, there is no even a half way good reason, let alone a compelling reason, for AFAP to be granted any kind of sole coverage of pilots.
Isn't AFAP the outfit that convinced its members to drink the Kool-Aid and resign en masse in 1989?

It was the infamous 'don't worry, they can't do without us' negotiating strategy.

I've listened to those sad expat Ozmate tales of we shoulda, coulda, woulda for three decades now.
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 22:59
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If you want to know why they (AFAP) are going down this path then just ring and ask, the load of sh&t that is offered up by the armchair experts here is lamentable.
Di Vosh, well put!!!
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 23:29
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Originally Posted by Don Diego View Post
If you want to know why they (AFAP) are going down this path then just ring and ask, the load of sh&t that is offered up by the armchair experts here is lamentable.
Di Vosh, well put!!!
Why not just post the supposedly wonderful reason here??
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