So you need a new fleet Leigh?
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Instead of taking this as a recommendation, it was taken by IR/HR as being a turf war. Out of spite, and in classic “don’t tell me, I know boats” moment they decided to do it all on their schedule, no doubt banking KPI bonuses as they did so.
When the 767 was retired, there was an initial intention to place all of the surplus crew from the 767 onto the A330 in rank. No demotions, conversions only to promote again two years later, another conversion. Hold a surplus on the 330 in the short term knowing the tsunami of training we’re seeing now was just around the corner. It was obvious to anyone with their eyes open. This simple act would have saved a vast percentage of the training problem. Did it happen? Of course not. All of the 767 crew myself included, have now been through a demotion, a conversion course (380 in my case), three years atrophied, a conversion (787) and subsequent promotion. It’s like an episode of Keystone Cops.
Make no mistake. This is all down to the arrogant, ignorant parasites that call themselves Human Resources. Their ignorance laid bare for all to see.
Who picks up the pieces? Us of course. Max divisors, no leave, riot clauses. I feel a headache coming on. Might even prevent my next pattern.
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To make matters worse they were told, time and again, that they needed to start training/recruiting yesterday by AIPA and just about any pilot with a pulse. They ended up being about two years late.
Instead of taking this as a recommendation, it was taken by IR/HR as being a turf war. Out of spite, and in classic “don’t tell me, I know boats” moment they decided to do it all on their schedule, no doubt banking KPI bonuses as they did so.
When the 767 was retired, there was an initial intention to place all of the surplus crew from the 767 onto the A330 in rank. No demotions, conversions only to promote again two years later, another conversion. Hold a surplus on the 330 in the short term knowing the tsunami of training we’re seeing now was just around the corner. It was obvious to anyone with their eyes open. This simple act would have saved a vast percentage of the training problem. Did it happen? Of course not. All of the 767 crew myself included, have now been through a demotion, a conversion course (380 in my case), three years atrophied, a conversion (787) and subsequent promotion. It’s like an episode of Keystone Cops.
Make no mistake. This is all down to the arrogant, ignorant parasites that call themselves Human Resources. Their ignorance laid bare for all to see.
Who picks up the pieces? Us of course. Max divisors, no leave, riot clauses. I feel a headache coming on. Might even prevent my next pattern.
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When the 767 was retired, there was an initial intention to place all of the surplus crew from the 767 onto the A330 in rank. No demotions, conversions only to promote again two years later, another conversion. Hold a surplus on the 330 in the short term knowing the tsunami of training we’re seeing now was just around the corner. It was obvious to anyone with their eyes open. This simple act would have saved a vast percentage of the training problem. Did it happen? Of course not. All of the 767 crew myself included, have now been through a demotion, a conversion course (380 in my case), three years atrophied, a conversion (787) and subsequent promotion. It’s like an episode of Keystone Cops.
The intent has been industrial. The attempt in 2011 to drive the pilot body to arbitration had upside risk for them that they would get what they wanted; a substantially watered down agreement The downside risk was the Bench left the agreement as it was.
Industrially the umpire chose more the latter (reading the summary findings) There were far more cost effective remedies to a short term pilot surplus than demotion. However the intent was to render control on unit cost and contain wage pressure.
All of their activity is predicated toward lowering unit cost. As admirable as that may be, they are the ignorant refuse you refer to. They did not notice a building demographic shortage, nor do they appear to notice the rising oil price. Qantas has shocking fleet metrics and this could also be exposed by rising fuel prices.
One may postulate though that having no pilots and cancelling a lot of flights might reduce the fuel bill by a lot! /sarc
I feel a headache coming on. Might even prevent my next pattern.
Jokes aside, Qantas need a new fleet.
If my memory serves me correctly is it not a requirement for the holding of an AOC to have adequate crew, aircraft and spares to run a scheduled airline operation?
If my memory serves me correctly is it not a requirement for the holding of an AOC to have adequate crew, aircraft and spares to run a scheduled airline operation?
Does anyone have any info/whispers on what this does to next year’s bumper training year on the 737? Is it just next BP that have been ‘put on hold indefinitely’? Or have they got a catch up plan? ie more trainers, etc?
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Anything past afternoon smoko is waaaaaaaaaay too far into the future to even think about.
To make matters worse they were told, time and again, that they needed to start training/recruiting yesterday by AIPA and just about any pilot with a pulse. They ended up being about two years late.
Instead of taking this as a recommendation, it was taken by IR/HR as being a turf war. Out of spite, and in classic “don’t tell me, I know boats” moment they decided to do it all on their schedule, no doubt banking KPI bonuses as they did so.
When the 767 was retired, there was an initial intention to place all of the surplus crew from the 767 onto the A330 in rank. No demotions, conversions only to promote again two years later, another conversion. Hold a surplus on the 330 in the short term knowing the tsunami of training we’re seeing now was just around the corner. It was obvious to anyone with their eyes open. This simple act would have saved a vast percentage of the training problem. Did it happen? Of course not. All of the 767 crew myself included, have now been through a demotion, a conversion course (380 in my case), three years atrophied, a conversion (787) and subsequent promotion. It’s like an episode of Keystone Cops.
Make no mistake. This is all down to the arrogant, ignorant parasites that call themselves Human Resources. Their ignorance laid bare for all to see.
Who picks up the pieces? Us of course. Max divisors, no leave, riot clauses. I feel a headache coming on. Might even prevent my next pattern.
Oh for F's sake, spare me the altruistic warped history!
Plenty of pilots on the 737 had seniority in excess of many 767 pilots for A330 slots/bases and had done so for eon's longer. So you think you should have been "extra specially" bumped up the seniority list to your favored rank/base just to save the company a few bucks? FFS! The fact is, the vast majority, if not all, of 767 pilots that were demoted, was via their own volition. They would not accept the same rank on 737 or worst case, a change in base and the 737. As I recall, there was one annual bid allocation after the 767 retirement was announced, where all but the very most junior, if not all, 767 pilots would have been able to keep their rank, albeit not base. Bit a few on the arse as it came to play! but as Anand Sheela would say, Tough Titties!
Last edited by Potsie Weber; 9th Jul 2018 at 15:49.
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The 1 month delay in 737 training is to free up the trainers to train trainers. New sim in Syd + more trainers = increased training capacity. Or does it just bring actual training capacity inline with planned? Regardless, it should relieve the current choke point of not enough 737 trainers.
The fact is, the vast majority, if not all, of 767 pilots that were demoted, was via their own volition. They would not accept the same rank on 737 or worst case, a change in base and the 737. As I recall, there was one annual bid allocation after the 767 retirement was announced, where all but the very most junior, if not all, 767 pilots would have been able to keep their rank, albeit not base. Bit a few on the arse as it came to play! but as Anand Sheela would say, Tough Titties!
When the RIN actually happened, there were no Sydney 737 FO slots at all.
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Oh for F's sake, spare me the altruistic warped history!
Plenty of pilots on the 737 had seniority in excess of many 767 pilots for A330 slots/bases and had done so for eon's longer. So you think you should have been "extra specially" bumped up the seniority list to your favored rank/base just to save the company a few bucks? FFS! The fact is, the vast majority, if not all, of 767 pilots that were demoted, was via their own volition. They would not accept the same rank on 737 or worst case, a change in base and the 737. As I recall, there was one annual bid allocation after the 767 retirement was announced, where all but the very most junior, if not all, 767 pilots would have been able to keep their rank, albeit not base. Bit a few on the arse as it came to play! but as Anand Sheela would say, Tough Titties!
Plenty of pilots on the 737 had seniority in excess of many 767 pilots for A330 slots/bases and had done so for eon's longer. So you think you should have been "extra specially" bumped up the seniority list to your favored rank/base just to save the company a few bucks? FFS! The fact is, the vast majority, if not all, of 767 pilots that were demoted, was via their own volition. They would not accept the same rank on 737 or worst case, a change in base and the 737. As I recall, there was one annual bid allocation after the 767 retirement was announced, where all but the very most junior, if not all, 767 pilots would have been able to keep their rank, albeit not base. Bit a few on the arse as it came to play! but as Anand Sheela would say, Tough Titties!
As has has already been pointed out to you, a large percentage of us didn’t have the option of keeping our rank. I didn’t have seniority for a 737 slot at the time. How things change.
There is facility within the agreement for pilots subject to a RIN to be placed wherever the company decides they need them, regardless of seniority. This has been used many times in the past with RINs I’ve personally been involved with on the 743 and 767. Named in the RIN but outbid for the assigned position by a 743/767 pilot senior to me. The clause is there for exactly the reason we’re seeing now. To minimise training load. The other reality is that, during a RIN if you bid for a slot you’re locked into a training freeze for however long that might be. Effectively stopping you from bidding for any slot, in seniority, that may pop up over the next few years. If you’re pushed somewhere, rather than bid, then you’re free to leave. Many 767 guys actually didn’t finish their 380 demotion course only to find themselves starting 330 course in their rightful rank within seniority. Such was the stupidity of what happened. If I had bid for a 737 slot, if I had the seniority for it, which I hadn’t, I would still be stuck there today under a training freeze, not sitting in a 787, bid for and awarded on seniority.
I don't deny I would have personally benefited from this process, but as you so eloquently put it, “tough titties” to those that would have been trumped.
Sometimes you win in a RIN, sometimes you lose. Putting 767 pilots on the 330 in rank was what was planned. Scuttled at the eleventh hour by the nudist. Another HR spanker who thought he knew better. To do so would have benefited 767 pilots, the company and current 330 pilots that have suffered too few numbers for years. Max divisors, no leave and riot clauses have been their reality for years. Just ask them. The alternative is the training black hole we’re now witnessing. Chickens, roost.
exercise his or her seniority to displace the most junior pilot in any category and base provided the election to displace is
made at or before the promulgated date or dates specified in clause 18.1.12(c) and provided he or she will not displace a pilot in a higher status unless the pilot affected by the reduction would otherwise be demoted to a lower status or have his or her services terminated.
Isdon, would you be good enough to show me where it says the company can put them regardless of seniority as I am struggling with this. Thanks
made at or before the promulgated date or dates specified in clause 18.1.12(c) and provided he or she will not displace a pilot in a higher status unless the pilot affected by the reduction would otherwise be demoted to a lower status or have his or her services terminated.
Isdon, would you be good enough to show me where it says the company can put them regardless of seniority as I am struggling with this. Thanks
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(c) Subject to clauses 18.1.12(a) and 18.1.12(b), at least 30 days prior to a reduction in numbers at a base in accordance with clauses 18.1.12(d) and 18.1.12(e), the Company will promulgate the following information:
(i) the number and category of surplus pilots;
(ii) the date(s) from which reductions will become effective;
(iii) the names of pilots in the category at the base affected by the surplus;
(iv) bases where vacancies in the category are available or will become available; and/or
(v) if applicable to the circumstances, bases and categories where the Company is proposing to re-deploy surplus pilots.
(i) the number and category of surplus pilots;
(ii) the date(s) from which reductions will become effective;
(iii) the names of pilots in the category at the base affected by the surplus;
(iv) bases where vacancies in the category are available or will become available; and/or
(v) if applicable to the circumstances, bases and categories where the Company is proposing to re-deploy surplus pilots.
It was also used on the 767 about 10 years ago. The exact date isn’t important, but I can dig it out if you need it. I was named on that list to, having just checked out on the 767 after the 743 RIN I was also part of. At that time the company promulgated a RIN on the 767 F/Os and proposed deploying those named to the 380 as F/Os. Obviously out of seniority, but that’s where the company wanted F/Os at that time. Also obviously, those named, as the most junior in the surplus category, were outbid for those positions by other 767 F/Os in the surplus category more senior to those named. So 6 (if memory serves) of the more senior 767 F/Os were awarded those 380 F/O positions out of seniority.
Thats not how the last 767 RIN was conducted, which has obviously led to an exacerbation of the training pipeline blockages we see now. It was conducted more along the lines of strict seniority, which kept the rank and file happy. That said it could have been done differently, the facility to do it still exists to this day.
In case you’re wondering, I’ve been personally named on 7 RIN lists during my time in Qantas. Not all resulted in me moving somewhere obviously. That said I consider myself quite well experienced in the matter.
Nunc est bibendum
Redeployments also used on the A380 F/O RINs in 2015 and resulted in 4 A380 F/Os redeploying to A330 commands whilst there were 737 pilots senior to them wanting A330 commands
S&P were the first in the Investment Community to ‘Break Rank’ and express a bit of dissatisfaction in public, now another indicates concerns about Fleet replacement requirements, among other things...
Roger Montgomery in The Australian.
Certainly DM.
The distinction is the last paragraph, should the company wish to use it. In the past it has been used to redeploy surplus pilots to positions out of seniority. When the 743 was wound up, many of those on it, who had been frozen and bypassed at company discretion for years, were basically given their first preference for where they wanted to go, within reason. There wasn’t that many of us left at the end so it really didn’t upset that many.
It was also used on the 767 about 10 years ago. The exact date isn’t important, but I can dig it out if you need it. I was named on that list to, having just checked out on the 767 after the 743 RIN I was also part of. At that time the company promulgated a RIN on the 767 F/Os and proposed deploying those named to the 380 as F/Os. Obviously out of seniority, but that’s where the company wanted F/Os at that time. Also obviously, those named, as the most junior in the surplus category, were outbid for those positions by other 767 F/Os in the surplus category more senior to those named. So 6 (if memory serves) of the more senior 767 F/Os were awarded those 380 F/O positions out of seniority.
Thats not how the last 767 RIN was conducted, which has obviously led to an exacerbation of the training pipeline blockages we see now. It was conducted more along the lines of strict seniority, which kept the rank and file happy. That said it could have been done differently, the facility to do it still exists to this day.
In case you’re wondering, I’ve been personally named on 7 RIN lists during my time in Qantas. Not all resulted in me moving somewhere obviously. That said I consider myself quite well experienced in the matter.
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Another important distiction is that as the 737 is on the short haul agreement there is no facility to RIN long haul pilots to the 737. To do so would be forcing someone to work under a different agreement. The company can certainly promulgate available 737 slots but the subject pilots can’t be pushed there. I’m not even sure if there is a RIN process on the short haul agreement.
From ExtraShot's link:
Pretty much says it all really. Sunrise? More like a train headlight at the end of a tunnel...
You can call it a disciplined approach to capital spending or you could say the board might prefer to see the share price go up now, maximise share price-related incentives for current management and leave the reality of replacing planes to the next CEO. On that matter, having served as CEO for almost a decade, it’s time to wonder whether Alan Joyce will stick around through the next potentially more challenging period,
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I think a big issue was the 737 "A" pilots. The move was initially to say the RIN was outside the relevance of the Integration Agreement and that 767 pilots could just be moved to the 330 . The 737 pilots were having none of that, arguing the Integration Award must be considered and any positions on the 330 as a result of 767 retirement, should go to "A" pilots first as there was to be an increase in domestic A330 flying. The 737 pilots were also worried about it being used to "park" surplus pilots, being the cheapest fleet to carry a surplus. This complicated the RIN like never before.
No comment on the merit or otherwise of this arrangement intended as it never effected me.
The fact is it’s been done before the 767 RIN. It’s been done since. The facility exists. I’ll bet if the company could go back and do the RIN again it would. Differently. It would have solved a lot of problems.