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So you need a new fleet Leigh?

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So you need a new fleet Leigh?

Old 9th Jul 2018, 07:10
  #481 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Somewhere on the Australian Coast
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Keg, as it stands they need to slow the 747 retirement plan.

They wouldn't be able to maintain anything like the domestic capacity they need without it. Who would have thought we'd see Sydney-Perth, crewed out of Brisbane no less, on the 747!

The patterns for next BP to Perth out of Brisbane were pax to SYD, day off, operate to PER, pax BNE. 3 day pattern. One operating sector. 16.30 pay. Crazy stuff. I understand part of this was having no surplus in the SYD base and a little bit in BNE so it was presumably the only way to do it. HKG and HND patterns have also been crewed out of BNE with additional days away credit, accom, allowances (and AFDP payable for the paxing sector back to BNE). I'm not sure what the determining factor is in A/C retirements (D-check?) but if they HAVE to start retiring 747s for any reason they're in serious trouble.
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Old 9th Jul 2018, 07:15
  #482 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by DirectAnywhere View Post
This is what happens when "managers" get so excited by their promotion and F11 upgrade they lose sight of what they were put there to do in the first place after their more experienced colleagues (who know about resource planning) were made redundant four years ago. Babes in the wood with stars in their eyes.
Precisely.


Qantas may well need a new fleet stat but there is no way of training for it.
A strategic failure. N'est ce-Pas? Entirely of Fort Fumble's making.
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Old 9th Jul 2018, 07:30
  #483 (permalink)  
 
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Im hearing that a number of second officers who failed their sim checks had it over ridden by HR so they could be employed. If correct what a laugh.
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Old 9th Jul 2018, 08:14
  #484 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
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Originally Posted by Rated De View Post
Precisely.




A strategic failure. N'est ce-Pas? Entirely of Fort Fumble's making.
To make matters worse they were told, time and again, that they needed to start training/recruiting yesterday by AIPA and just about any pilot with a pulse. They ended up being about two years late.

Instead of taking this as a recommendation, it was taken by IR/HR as being a turf war. Out of spite, and in classic “don’t tell me, I know boats” moment they decided to do it all on their schedule, no doubt banking KPI bonuses as they did so.

When the 767 was retired, there was an initial intention to place all of the surplus crew from the 767 onto the A330 in rank. No demotions, conversions only to promote again two years later, another conversion. Hold a surplus on the 330 in the short term knowing the tsunami of training we’re seeing now was just around the corner. It was obvious to anyone with their eyes open. This simple act would have saved a vast percentage of the training problem. Did it happen? Of course not. All of the 767 crew myself included, have now been through a demotion, a conversion course (380 in my case), three years atrophied, a conversion (787) and subsequent promotion. It’s like an episode of Keystone Cops.

Make no mistake. This is all down to the arrogant, ignorant parasites that call themselves Human Resources. Their ignorance laid bare for all to see.

Who picks up the pieces? Us of course. Max divisors, no leave, riot clauses. I feel a headache coming on. Might even prevent my next pattern.
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Old 9th Jul 2018, 08:29
  #485 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by IsDon View Post


To make matters worse they were told, time and again, that they needed to start training/recruiting yesterday by AIPA and just about any pilot with a pulse. They ended up being about two years late.

Instead of taking this as a recommendation, it was taken by IR/HR as being a turf war. Out of spite, and in classic “don’t tell me, I know boats” moment they decided to do it all on their schedule, no doubt banking KPI bonuses as they did so.

When the 767 was retired, there was an initial intention to place all of the surplus crew from the 767 onto the A330 in rank. No demotions, conversions only to promote again two years later, another conversion. Hold a surplus on the 330 in the short term knowing the tsunami of training we’re seeing now was just around the corner. It was obvious to anyone with their eyes open. This simple act would have saved a vast percentage of the training problem. Did it happen? Of course not. All of the 767 crew myself included, have now been through a demotion, a conversion course (380 in my case), three years atrophied, a conversion (787) and subsequent promotion. It’s like an episode of Keystone Cops.

Make no mistake. This is all down to the arrogant, ignorant parasites that call themselves Human Resources. Their ignorance laid bare for all to see.

Who picks up the pieces? Us of course. Max divisors, no leave, riot clauses. I feel a headache coming on. Might even prevent my next pattern.
Hear, hear. Let's burn them in the upcoming EBA.
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Old 9th Jul 2018, 08:52
  #486 (permalink)  
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When the 767 was retired, there was an initial intention to place all of the surplus crew from the 767 onto the A330 in rank. No demotions, conversions only to promote again two years later, another conversion. Hold a surplus on the 330 in the short term knowing the tsunami of training we’re seeing now was just around the corner. It was obvious to anyone with their eyes open. This simple act would have saved a vast percentage of the training problem. Did it happen? Of course not. All of the 767 crew myself included, have now been through a demotion, a conversion course (380 in my case), three years atrophied, a conversion (787) and subsequent promotion. It’s like an episode of Keystone Cops.
Of course not.
The intent has been industrial. The attempt in 2011 to drive the pilot body to arbitration had upside risk for them that they would get what they wanted; a substantially watered down agreement The downside risk was the Bench left the agreement as it was.
Industrially the umpire chose more the latter (reading the summary findings) There were far more cost effective remedies to a short term pilot surplus than demotion. However the intent was to render control on unit cost and contain wage pressure.

All of their activity is predicated toward lowering unit cost. As admirable as that may be, they are the ignorant refuse you refer to. They did not notice a building demographic shortage, nor do they appear to notice the rising oil price. Qantas has shocking fleet metrics and this could also be exposed by rising fuel prices.

One may postulate though that having no pilots and cancelling a lot of flights might reduce the fuel bill by a lot! /sarc

I feel a headache coming on. Might even prevent my next pattern.
The apparatus of HR is well equipped to control a work force that transgresses, however it is ill equipped to deal with passive resistance.


Jokes aside, Qantas need a new fleet.
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Old 9th Jul 2018, 11:19
  #487 (permalink)  
 
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If my memory serves me correctly is it not a requirement for the holding of an AOC to have adequate crew, aircraft and spares to run a scheduled airline operation?
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Old 9th Jul 2018, 11:20
  #488 (permalink)  
 
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If my memory serves me correctly is it not a requirement for the holding of an AOC to have adequate crew, aircraft and spares to run a scheduled airline operation?
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Old 9th Jul 2018, 11:33
  #489 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Street garbage View Post
Mates who were supposed to start B737 training in July have been advised their courses are on hold indefinitely. Not happy Jan...
Does anyone have any info/whispers on what this does to next year’s bumper training year on the 737? Is it just next BP that have been ‘put on hold indefinitely’? Or have they got a catch up plan? ie more trainers, etc?
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Old 9th Jul 2018, 12:59
  #490 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OneDotLow View Post


Does anyone have any info/whispers on what this does to next year’s bumper training year on the 737? Is it just next BP that have been ‘put on hold indefinitely’? Or have they got a catch up plan? ie more trainers, etc?
The only catch up plan this lot have is to catch up in the street for lunch.

Anything past afternoon smoko is waaaaaaaaaay too far into the future to even think about.
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Old 9th Jul 2018, 13:01
  #491 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by IsDon View Post


The only catch up plan this lot have is to catch up in the street for lunch.

Anything past afternoon smoko is waaaaaaaaaay too far into the future to even think about.
Cynical, but soooo true.
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Old 9th Jul 2018, 16:28
  #492 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
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Originally Posted by IsDon View Post


To make matters worse they were told, time and again, that they needed to start training/recruiting yesterday by AIPA and just about any pilot with a pulse. They ended up being about two years late.

Instead of taking this as a recommendation, it was taken by IR/HR as being a turf war. Out of spite, and in classic “don’t tell me, I know boats” moment they decided to do it all on their schedule, no doubt banking KPI bonuses as they did so.

When the 767 was retired, there was an initial intention to place all of the surplus crew from the 767 onto the A330 in rank. No demotions, conversions only to promote again two years later, another conversion. Hold a surplus on the 330 in the short term knowing the tsunami of training we’re seeing now was just around the corner. It was obvious to anyone with their eyes open. This simple act would have saved a vast percentage of the training problem. Did it happen? Of course not. All of the 767 crew myself included, have now been through a demotion, a conversion course (380 in my case), three years atrophied, a conversion (787) and subsequent promotion. It’s like an episode of Keystone Cops.

Make no mistake. This is all down to the arrogant, ignorant parasites that call themselves Human Resources. Their ignorance laid bare for all to see.

Who picks up the pieces? Us of course. Max divisors, no leave, riot clauses. I feel a headache coming on. Might even prevent my next pattern.



Oh for F's sake, spare me the altruistic warped history!

Plenty of pilots on the 737 had seniority in excess of many 767 pilots for A330 slots/bases and had done so for eon's longer. So you think you should have been "extra specially" bumped up the seniority list to your favored rank/base just to save the company a few bucks? FFS! The fact is, the vast majority, if not all, of 767 pilots that were demoted, was via their own volition. They would not accept the same rank on 737 or worst case, a change in base and the 737. As I recall, there was one annual bid allocation after the 767 retirement was announced, where all but the very most junior, if not all, 767 pilots would have been able to keep their rank, albeit not base. Bit a few on the arse as it came to play! but as Anand Sheela would say, Tough Titties!

Last edited by Potsie Weber; 9th Jul 2018 at 16:49.
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Old 9th Jul 2018, 22:33
  #493 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OneDotLow View Post


Does anyone have any info/whispers on what this does to next year’s bumper training year on the 737? Is it just next BP that have been ‘put on hold indefinitely’? Or have they got a catch up plan? ie more trainers, etc?
The 1 month delay in 737 training is to free up the trainers to train trainers. New sim in Syd + more trainers = increased training capacity. Or does it just bring actual training capacity inline with planned? Regardless, it should relieve the current choke point of not enough 737 trainers.
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Old 9th Jul 2018, 23:39
  #494 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Potsie Weber View Post
The fact is, the vast majority, if not all, of 767 pilots that were demoted, was via their own volition. They would not accept the same rank on 737 or worst case, a change in base and the 737. As I recall, there was one annual bid allocation after the 767 retirement was announced, where all but the very most junior, if not all, 767 pilots would have been able to keep their rank, albeit not base. Bit a few on the arse as it came to play! but as Anand Sheela would say, Tough Titties!
Not true (but very much in line with what a certain management pilot was saying). All but the most junior might’ve had the seniority for a 737 slot, but that’s not the same as everyone being able to get one. There simply weren’t that many slots, so plenty of people were always going to be demoted, whether of their own volition or not.

When the RIN actually happened, there were no Sydney 737 FO slots at all.
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Old 10th Jul 2018, 00:44
  #495 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Potsie Weber View Post
Oh for F's sake, spare me the altruistic warped history!

Plenty of pilots on the 737 had seniority in excess of many 767 pilots for A330 slots/bases and had done so for eon's longer. So you think you should have been "extra specially" bumped up the seniority list to your favored rank/base just to save the company a few bucks? FFS! The fact is, the vast majority, if not all, of 767 pilots that were demoted, was via their own volition. They would not accept the same rank on 737 or worst case, a change in base and the 737. As I recall, there was one annual bid allocation after the 767 retirement was announced, where all but the very most junior, if not all, 767 pilots would have been able to keep their rank, albeit not base. Bit a few on the arse as it came to play! but as Anand Sheela would say, Tough Titties!
No warped history, aside from what you’re spruiking.

As has has already been pointed out to you, a large percentage of us didn’t have the option of keeping our rank. I didn’t have seniority for a 737 slot at the time. How things change.

There is facility within the agreement for pilots subject to a RIN to be placed wherever the company decides they need them, regardless of seniority. This has been used many times in the past with RINs I’ve personally been involved with on the 743 and 767. Named in the RIN but outbid for the assigned position by a 743/767 pilot senior to me. The clause is there for exactly the reason we’re seeing now. To minimise training load. The other reality is that, during a RIN if you bid for a slot you’re locked into a training freeze for however long that might be. Effectively stopping you from bidding for any slot, in seniority, that may pop up over the next few years. If you’re pushed somewhere, rather than bid, then you’re free to leave. Many 767 guys actually didn’t finish their 380 demotion course only to find themselves starting 330 course in their rightful rank within seniority. Such was the stupidity of what happened. If I had bid for a 737 slot, if I had the seniority for it, which I hadn’t, I would still be stuck there today under a training freeze, not sitting in a 787, bid for and awarded on seniority.

I don't deny I would have personally benefited from this process, but as you so eloquently put it, “tough titties” to those that would have been trumped.

Sometimes you win in a RIN, sometimes you lose. Putting 767 pilots on the 330 in rank was what was planned. Scuttled at the eleventh hour by the nudist. Another HR spanker who thought he knew better. To do so would have benefited 767 pilots, the company and current 330 pilots that have suffered too few numbers for years. Max divisors, no leave and riot clauses have been their reality for years. Just ask them. The alternative is the training black hole we’re now witnessing. Chickens, roost.

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Old 10th Jul 2018, 02:29
  #496 (permalink)  
 
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exercise his or her seniority to displace the most junior pilot in any category and base provided the election to displace is
made at or before the promulgated date or dates specified in clause 18.1.12(c) and provided he or she will not displace a pilot in a higher status unless the pilot affected by the reduction would otherwise be demoted to a lower status or have his or her services terminated.

Isdon, would you be good enough to show me where it says the company can put them regardless of seniority as I am struggling with this. Thanks
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Old 10th Jul 2018, 03:52
  #497 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dragon man View Post
Isdon, would you be good enough to show me where it says the company can put them regardless of seniority as I am struggling with this. Thanks
Certainly DM.

(c) Subject to clauses 18.1.12(a) and 18.1.12(b), at least 30 days prior to a reduction in numbers at a base in accordance with clauses 18.1.12(d) and 18.1.12(e), the Company will promulgate the following information:

(i) the number and category of surplus pilots;

(ii) the date(s) from which reductions will become effective;

(iii) the names of pilots in the category at the base affected by the surplus;

(iv) bases where vacancies in the category are available or will become available; and/or

(v) if applicable to the circumstances, bases and categories where the Company is proposing to re-deploy surplus pilots.
The distinction is the last paragraph, should the company wish to use it. In the past it has been used to redeploy surplus pilots to positions out of seniority. When the 743 was wound up, many of those on it, who had been frozen and bypassed at company discretion for years, were basically given their first preference for where they wanted to go, within reason. There wasn’t that many of us left at the end so it really didn’t upset that many.

It was also used on the 767 about 10 years ago. The exact date isn’t important, but I can dig it out if you need it. I was named on that list to, having just checked out on the 767 after the 743 RIN I was also part of. At that time the company promulgated a RIN on the 767 F/Os and proposed deploying those named to the 380 as F/Os. Obviously out of seniority, but that’s where the company wanted F/Os at that time. Also obviously, those named, as the most junior in the surplus category, were outbid for those positions by other 767 F/Os in the surplus category more senior to those named. So 6 (if memory serves) of the more senior 767 F/Os were awarded those 380 F/O positions out of seniority.

Thats not how the last 767 RIN was conducted, which has obviously led to an exacerbation of the training pipeline blockages we see now. It was conducted more along the lines of strict seniority, which kept the rank and file happy. That said it could have been done differently, the facility to do it still exists to this day.

In case you’re wondering, I’ve been personally named on 7 RIN lists during my time in Qantas. Not all resulted in me moving somewhere obviously. That said I consider myself quite well experienced in the matter.
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Old 10th Jul 2018, 03:59
  #498 (permalink)  
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Redeployments also used on the A380 F/O RINs in 2015 and resulted in 4 A380 F/Os redeploying to A330 commands whilst there were 737 pilots senior to them wanting A330 commands
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Old 10th Jul 2018, 04:16
  #499 (permalink)  
 
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S&P were the first in the Investment Community to ‘Break Rank’ and express a bit of dissatisfaction in public, now another indicates concerns about Fleet replacement requirements, among other things...

Roger Montgomery in The Australian.



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Old 10th Jul 2018, 04:20
  #500 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by IsDon View Post


Certainly DM.



The distinction is the last paragraph, should the company wish to use it. In the past it has been used to redeploy surplus pilots to positions out of seniority. When the 743 was wound up, many of those on it, who had been frozen and bypassed at company discretion for years, were basically given their first preference for where they wanted to go, within reason. There wasn’t that many of us left at the end so it really didn’t upset that many.

It was also used on the 767 about 10 years ago. The exact date isn’t important, but I can dig it out if you need it. I was named on that list to, having just checked out on the 767 after the 743 RIN I was also part of. At that time the company promulgated a RIN on the 767 F/Os and proposed deploying those named to the 380 as F/Os. Obviously out of seniority, but that’s where the company wanted F/Os at that time. Also obviously, those named, as the most junior in the surplus category, were outbid for those positions by other 767 F/Os in the surplus category more senior to those named. So 6 (if memory serves) of the more senior 767 F/Os were awarded those 380 F/O positions out of seniority.

Thats not how the last 767 RIN was conducted, which has obviously led to an exacerbation of the training pipeline blockages we see now. It was conducted more along the lines of strict seniority, which kept the rank and file happy. That said it could have been done differently, the facility to do it still exists to this day.

In case you’re wondering, I’ve been personally named on 7 RIN lists during my time in Qantas. Not all resulted in me moving somewhere obviously. That said I consider myself quite well experienced in the matter.
I think a big issue was the 737 "A" pilots. The move was initially to say the RIN was outside the relevance of the Integration Agreement and that 767 pilots could just be moved to the 330 . The 737 pilots were having none of that, arguing the Integration Award must be considered and any positions on the 330 as a result of 767 retirement, should go to "A" pilots first as there was to be an increase in domestic A330 flying. The 737 pilots were also worried about it being used to "park" surplus pilots, being the cheapest fleet to carry a surplus. This complicated the RIN like never before.
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