Pilot shortage
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At the end of the day, most pilots are motivated to find a job which gives them best lifestyle and for Australians, that usually means living in Oz. Airline management know this and hence we will never see the big money offered overseas. Of course China and the Middle East need to pay big money and lower entry requirements to attract candidates as these places are sh@t holes compared to Australia.
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Airline management know this and hence we will never see the big money offered overseas.
What sources indicate are very good commuting contracts will become more prevalent. Remove the necessity to re-locate a family to another country that one finds sub standard and the perceived advantage of living in Australia vanishes.
This shortage is not a function of the business cycle. It is driven by;
- Demographics
- Declining Qualified supply
- Increasing demand for air travel-Airlines were a big benefactor from globalisation, which now ironically is a two way street!
- Adversarial employee relations models and all that grubby practice entails
It is entirely plausible that Australian airline management struggle to attract supply. Indeed it is already evident in many of the regional feeder airline groups, where despite unions claiming a lobbying presence in Canberra, 457 visas appeared without warning.
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Unless they're unable to fill seats, they *are* paying market wages. "Market wages" aren't: "what I think I should be paid." Market wages are the wages for which pilots are willing to do the job.
There is also the curse/gift depending on perspective of Seniority and the protected workshop it creates. It serves primarily in benefit of the employer by creating a captive workforce-until the supply reduces. Only then does it work against the employer. Most experienced expat pilots that I know would be far more likely to consider a wage reduction to take a left seat rather than a right hand one-not because of the ego but purely because of the associated pay cheque. I could afford a pay cut to a Captains pay but not that of First Officer. Give me the same $$ and I don't care which seat I sit in.
Originally Posted by Clear To Land
Most experienced expat pilots that I know would be far more likely to consider a wage reduction to take a left seat rather than a right hand
Blogg's, I don't think that's the best way to look at it.
I left Australia because I couldn't stand not having the opportunity to go see the world, work in different environments, experience different aspects of aviation, and make some better money than what's on offer in Australia. I'm in my 30's, so there's still a lot of aviating left to do for me. Doing Sydney-Gold Coast-Sydney a million times for the next 30 years is mind numbing.
However, at some point, I'm going to want to come home. I accepted that it would be difficult when the time came, I didn't leave without considering this.
So in 10-15 years when I want to return, I already think it's unfair that because I chose to expand my horizons and gain different experience, that I should be discriminated against just because Joe Smith has flown the Sydney-Gold Coast route 2 million times.
The seniority system locks out experience and doesn't acknowledge what someone with extensive experience could bring to an airline.
Why don't they have a system which promotes on performance and experience, rather than just who's been there the longest?
morno
I left Australia because I couldn't stand not having the opportunity to go see the world, work in different environments, experience different aspects of aviation, and make some better money than what's on offer in Australia. I'm in my 30's, so there's still a lot of aviating left to do for me. Doing Sydney-Gold Coast-Sydney a million times for the next 30 years is mind numbing.
However, at some point, I'm going to want to come home. I accepted that it would be difficult when the time came, I didn't leave without considering this.
So in 10-15 years when I want to return, I already think it's unfair that because I chose to expand my horizons and gain different experience, that I should be discriminated against just because Joe Smith has flown the Sydney-Gold Coast route 2 million times.
The seniority system locks out experience and doesn't acknowledge what someone with extensive experience could bring to an airline.
Why don't they have a system which promotes on performance and experience, rather than just who's been there the longest?
morno
Morno, with all due respect, that is one way of looking at it. For every one of you guys who want to explore the world, there is another who wants a decent job but wants to stay here for all sorts of reasons. They should not be penalised by staying in a seniority system. Then there is the "impartiality" that seniority forces on a company.
As for:
If the C and T department is doing it's job, the internal captains will have enough experience and performance to do the job.
Looking forward to soaking up your experience and performance from your Seat 0F one day!
As for:
Why don't they have a system which promotes on performance and experience, rather than just who's been there the longest?
Looking forward to soaking up your experience and performance from your Seat 0F one day!
[/QUOTE]
So in 10-15 years when I want to return, I already think it's unfair that because I chose to expand my horizons and gain different experience, that I should be discriminated against just because Joe Smith has flown the Sydney-Gold Coast route 2 million times.
The seniority system locks out experience and doesn't acknowledge what someone with extensive experience could bring to an airline.
[/QUOTE]
You just answered your own question.
Relevant experience may be all that really counts. 2 million times is a lot of anything. Seasons for one.
So in 10-15 years when I want to return, I already think it's unfair that because I chose to expand my horizons and gain different experience, that I should be discriminated against just because Joe Smith has flown the Sydney-Gold Coast route 2 million times.
The seniority system locks out experience and doesn't acknowledge what someone with extensive experience could bring to an airline.
[/QUOTE]
You just answered your own question.
Relevant experience may be all that really counts. 2 million times is a lot of anything. Seasons for one.
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Well, it's kind of the only way to look at it. I'm not a big fan of the seniority system for a variety of reasons. However, if I were at an airline which used the seniority system and they suddenly started hiring pilots into the left seat ahead of my, I'd not be happy either.
To paraphrase using Churchills Democracy quote...
Indeed, it has been said that seniority is the worst form of airline promotion, except all those other forms that have been tried.
Indeed, it has been said that seniority is the worst form of airline promotion, except all those other forms that have been tried.
Thread Starter
So in 10-15 years when I want to return, I already think it's unfair that because I chose to expand my horizons and gain different experience, that I should be discriminated against just because Joe Smith has flown the Sydney-Gold Coast route 2 million times.
Not my problem if you didn’t do it.
Personally I think in the future Australia will have no choice but to hire DEC’s. The pool is drying up and could even get to the point where they get to seniority numbers that are just not ready to be upgraded, due to lack of experience or similar.
Personally I think in the future Australia will have no choice but to hire DEC’s. The pool is drying up and could even get to the point where they get to seniority numbers that are just not ready to be upgraded, due to lack of experience or similar.
Nunc est bibendum
With an east coast narrow body command in QF going close to 20 years I suspect we are a very long time away from that situation morno. West coast narrow body commands currently sit about 16 years.
Of course if you want a 737 F/O slot in PER you can have that on day 2 of joining.
That all could change too if we rapidly increase the size of the 787 fleet without retiring aircraft but it’s still not going to see the situation you describe. More likely to struggle to get people to take F/O slots but that’s more related to pay and conditions than individual pilot skill level.
Of course if you want a 737 F/O slot in PER you can have that on day 2 of joining.
That all could change too if we rapidly increase the size of the 787 fleet without retiring aircraft but it’s still not going to see the situation you describe. More likely to struggle to get people to take F/O slots but that’s more related to pay and conditions than individual pilot skill level.
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Not my problem if you didn’t do it.
Personally I think in the future Australia will have no choice but to hire DEC’s. The pool is drying up and could even get to the point where they get to seniority numbers that are just not ready to be upgraded, due to lack of experience or similar.
Personally I think in the future Australia will have no choice but to hire DEC’s. The pool is drying up and could even get to the point where they get to seniority numbers that are just not ready to be upgraded, due to lack of experience or similar.
The whole world has proven...repeatedly...on every continent...in every culture...people will do whatever they have to do to remain in the game. So, if FOs have to fly with DECs even when it's not in the long term, best individual self interest of said FOs , they will.
This ENTIRE website is replete with evidence supporting the assertion.
Is that right or proper ? That's another subject and so hypothetical/theoretical as to be not worth discussing in light of empirical evidence.
Last edited by bafanguy; 7th Jan 2018 at 22:17.
So in 10-15 years when I want to return, I already think it's unfair that because I chose to expand my horizons and gain different experience, that I should be discriminated against just because Joe Smith has flown the Sydney-Gold Coast route 2 million times.
The seniority system locks out experience and doesn't acknowledge what someone with extensive experience could bring to an airline.
Why don't they have a system which promotes on performance and experience, rather than just who's been there the longest?
The seniority system locks out experience and doesn't acknowledge what someone with extensive experience could bring to an airline.
Why don't they have a system which promotes on performance and experience, rather than just who's been there the longest?
Why don't they have a system which promotes on performance and experience, rather than just who's been there the longest?
Have you ever raised your eyebrows at some of the appointments made to 'merit based' pilot positions such as C&T etc? Notice how merit based sometimes seems to coincide with attributes such as 'mates of the CP', and 'yes men' etc.
What would provide the transparent measure of performance and experience (relevant)?
Seniority is a curse for those inside and outside of it, but it beats the non-existant alternative when it comes to fairness and transparency.
Seniority is a separate debate from what I'm really reading between the lines here.
You have a few pilots here, who want an easier pathway to undercut Australian based pilots to secure their own repatriation. It reeks of the me, me, me syndrome that is a far more momentous issue for pilots than seniority.
There is no shortage of pilots who would do a QF pilots job for less. So how is seniority and unionism not an advantage? How is seniority the enemy of the pilot?
I've sat in a legacy airline and waited my turn with seniority. I didn't have to worry about the self-promoters who would ramble on about their previous civilian or military command experience and how performance should be the basis of their own early promotion. The funny thing being, when I moved abroad to an airline with a rapid command promotion with a 50% failure rate, many of the self-promoters fell short.
There is no sound alternative to seniority and it is amusing to see those abroad suggesting otherwise !
And sorry Morno, really, you left to broaden your experience? Who have you flown for? Airline flying abroad is often very restrictive and having been a domestic Australian pilot a long time ago, generally speaking, I'd rate that experience higher. You went abroad to either make money or to secure a career path not achieavable at home.
You have a few pilots here, who want an easier pathway to undercut Australian based pilots to secure their own repatriation. It reeks of the me, me, me syndrome that is a far more momentous issue for pilots than seniority.
There is no shortage of pilots who would do a QF pilots job for less. So how is seniority and unionism not an advantage? How is seniority the enemy of the pilot?
I've sat in a legacy airline and waited my turn with seniority. I didn't have to worry about the self-promoters who would ramble on about their previous civilian or military command experience and how performance should be the basis of their own early promotion. The funny thing being, when I moved abroad to an airline with a rapid command promotion with a 50% failure rate, many of the self-promoters fell short.
There is no sound alternative to seniority and it is amusing to see those abroad suggesting otherwise !
And sorry Morno, really, you left to broaden your experience? Who have you flown for? Airline flying abroad is often very restrictive and having been a domestic Australian pilot a long time ago, generally speaking, I'd rate that experience higher. You went abroad to either make money or to secure a career path not achieavable at home.