Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Pilot shortage

Old 6th Jan 2018, 09:38
  #501 (permalink)  
 
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Conditions

Not everyone is chasing the money, theyíre chasing lifestyle in a base where they choose. This isnít a new concept but in recent history the airlines that were offering the best Tís and Cís, have reduced them so much now that all there is left, is to chase the money. Conditions are pretty crap everywhere.

To me the solution seems simple, offer very good lifestyle, in a wide range of bases, lock it in an EBA and watch the applications roll in.

I think the first airline to work this out will not have a pilot shortage.
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Old 6th Jan 2018, 10:30
  #502 (permalink)  
 
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Especially at regionals. I have never understood why they haven't brought back regional city bases
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Old 6th Jan 2018, 10:31
  #503 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by allaru View Post
the Australian airlines should just offer the EK pilots the same money they are on in Dubai plus another 50%.
Funniest post ever.

Having lived in the Middle East I'd come home for 50% less than what then low cost Aussies are paid.
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Old 6th Jan 2018, 21:21
  #504 (permalink)  
 
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At the end of the day, most pilots are motivated to find a job which gives them best lifestyle and for Australians, that usually means living in Oz. Airline management know this and hence we will never see the big money offered overseas. Of course China and the Middle East need to pay big money and lower entry requirements to attract candidates as these places are [email protected] holes compared to Australia.
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Old 6th Jan 2018, 21:53
  #505 (permalink)  
 
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Airline management know this and hence we will never see the big money offered overseas.
Historically that paradigm held.
What sources indicate are very good commuting contracts will become more prevalent. Remove the necessity to re-locate a family to another country that one finds sub standard and the perceived advantage of living in Australia vanishes.

This shortage is not a function of the business cycle. It is driven by;

  1. Demographics
  2. Declining Qualified supply
  3. Increasing demand for air travel-Airlines were a big benefactor from globalisation, which now ironically is a two way street!
  4. Adversarial employee relations models and all that grubby practice entails
The airlines which first work out that this is sustained and securing supply means changing their employment relationship model will hold the strategic supply.

It is entirely plausible that Australian airline management struggle to attract supply. Indeed it is already evident in many of the regional feeder airline groups, where despite unions claiming a lobbying presence in Canberra, 457 visas appeared without warning.
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 06:16
  #506 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by travelator View Post
Ha ha ha. Airlines loathe paying market rates (except when there is surplus) yet alone add 50%
Unless they're unable to fill seats, they *are* paying market wages. "Market wages" aren't: "what I think I should be paid." Market wages are the wages for which pilots are willing to do the job.
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 08:43
  #507 (permalink)  
 
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There is also the curse/gift depending on perspective of Seniority and the protected workshop it creates. It serves primarily in benefit of the employer by creating a captive workforce-until the supply reduces. Only then does it work against the employer. Most experienced expat pilots that I know would be far more likely to consider a wage reduction to take a left seat rather than a right hand one-not because of the ego but purely because of the associated pay cheque. I could afford a pay cut to a Captains pay but not that of First Officer. Give me the same $$ and I don't care which seat I sit in.
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 09:33
  #508 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Clear To Land
Most experienced expat pilots that I know would be far more likely to consider a wage reduction to take a left seat rather than a right hand
And most pilots in the seniority system would prefer not to be jumped-over by those who have found the grass isn't greener on the other side of the ocean...
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 12:15
  #509 (permalink)  
 
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Blogg's, I don't think that's the best way to look at it.

I left Australia because I couldn't stand not having the opportunity to go see the world, work in different environments, experience different aspects of aviation, and make some better money than what's on offer in Australia. I'm in my 30's, so there's still a lot of aviating left to do for me. Doing Sydney-Gold Coast-Sydney a million times for the next 30 years is mind numbing.

However, at some point, I'm going to want to come home. I accepted that it would be difficult when the time came, I didn't leave without considering this.

So in 10-15 years when I want to return, I already think it's unfair that because I chose to expand my horizons and gain different experience, that I should be discriminated against just because Joe Smith has flown the Sydney-Gold Coast route 2 million times.

The seniority system locks out experience and doesn't acknowledge what someone with extensive experience could bring to an airline.

Why don't they have a system which promotes on performance and experience, rather than just who's been there the longest?

morno
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 12:54
  #510 (permalink)  
 
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Morno, with all due respect, that is one way of looking at it. For every one of you guys who want to explore the world, there is another who wants a decent job but wants to stay here for all sorts of reasons. They should not be penalised by staying in a seniority system. Then there is the "impartiality" that seniority forces on a company.

As for:
Why don't they have a system which promotes on performance and experience, rather than just who's been there the longest?
If the C and T department is doing it's job, the internal captains will have enough experience and performance to do the job.

Looking forward to soaking up your experience and performance from your Seat 0F one day!
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 12:59
  #511 (permalink)  
 
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[/QUOTE]
So in 10-15 years when I want to return, I already think it's unfair that because I chose to expand my horizons and gain different experience, that I should be discriminated against just because Joe Smith has flown the Sydney-Gold Coast route 2 million times.

The seniority system locks out experience and doesn't acknowledge what someone with extensive experience could bring to an airline.

[/QUOTE]

You just answered your own question.

Relevant experience may be all that really counts. 2 million times is a lot of anything. Seasons for one.
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 18:52
  #512 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by morno View Post
Blogg's, I don't think that's the best way to look at it.
Well, it's kind of the only way to look at it. I'm not a big fan of the seniority system for a variety of reasons. However, if I were at an airline which used the seniority system and they suddenly started hiring pilots into the left seat ahead of my, I'd not be happy either.
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 19:47
  #513 (permalink)  
 
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To paraphrase using Churchills Democracy quote...

Indeed, it has been said that seniority is the worst form of airline promotion, except all those other forms that have been tried.
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 19:58
  #514 (permalink)  
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So in 10-15 years when I want to return, I already think it's unfair that because I chose to expand my horizons and gain different experience, that I should be discriminated against just because Joe Smith has flown the Sydney-Gold Coast route 2 million times.
I don’t think it’s because Joe flew a route more than you. I think you will be discriminated against because you are late to the company party. That’s the way it is. Joe on the other hand had the option of going to lots of cool parties in cool locations just like you but decided not to because he knew that when he came back, he’d be unlikely to get a spot close to the pool but within reach of the barbecue.
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 19:59
  #515 (permalink)  
 
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Gee wouldnít that be the dream. Head overseas, fly a widebody, make some serious coin, then return home, cut the queue and retire as a domestic 737 Captain.
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 21:52
  #516 (permalink)  
 
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Not my problem if you didnít do it.

Personally I think in the future Australia will have no choice but to hire DECís. The pool is drying up and could even get to the point where they get to seniority numbers that are just not ready to be upgraded, due to lack of experience or similar.
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 22:05
  #517 (permalink)  
Keg

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With an east coast narrow body command in QF going close to 20 years I suspect we are a very long time away from that situation morno. West coast narrow body commands currently sit about 16 years.

Of course if you want a 737 F/O slot in PER you can have that on day 2 of joining.

That all could change too if we rapidly increase the size of the 787 fleet without retiring aircraft but it’s still not going to see the situation you describe. More likely to struggle to get people to take F/O slots but that’s more related to pay and conditions than individual pilot skill level.
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 22:11
  #518 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by morno View Post
Not my problem if you didnít do it.

Personally I think in the future Australia will have no choice but to hire DECís. The pool is drying up and could even get to the point where they get to seniority numbers that are just not ready to be upgraded, due to lack of experience or similar.
I canít speak for other airlines, but whilst that may solve the shortage you think exists for command upgrades, it will just create another shortage in the RHS. Good luck finding an FO in mainline who would sit next to anyone who joined as a DEC.
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 22:33
  #519 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by goodonyamate View Post
Good luck finding an FO in mainline who would sit next to anyone who joined as a DEC.
I would suggest the empirical evidence indicates there's no problem finding people who'll do exactly that without reservation or limitation.

The whole world has proven...repeatedly...on every continent...in every culture...people will do whatever they have to do to remain in the game. So, if FOs have to fly with DECs even when it's not in the long term, best individual self interest of said FOs , they will.

This ENTIRE website is replete with evidence supporting the assertion.

Is that right or proper ? That's another subject and so hypothetical/theoretical as to be not worth discussing in light of empirical evidence.

Last edited by bafanguy; 7th Jan 2018 at 23:17.
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Old 8th Jan 2018, 00:18
  #520 (permalink)  
 
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So in 10-15 years when I want to return, I already think it's unfair that because I chose to expand my horizons and gain different experience, that I should be discriminated against just because Joe Smith has flown the Sydney-Gold Coast route 2 million times.

The seniority system locks out experience and doesn't acknowledge what someone with extensive experience could bring to an airline.

Why don't they have a system which promotes on performance and experience, rather than just who's been there the longest?
Morno, there are a good many people who joined an Australian airline in their early 30s, having already racked up thousand of hours in all sorts of aviation. Those pilots are now in their 50s, and still unable to get an East coast command. If you think you should be given any sort of preference over them on the basis of either experience or performance, then Iíd suggest youíre being a bit presumptuous.
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