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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 23:48
  #421 (permalink)  
 
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Our company was investing 40,000 hours per year on cadet basic flight training in Australia alone. The Chinese have a "can do" attitude, and the staff all have a loyalty to the company to the extent I haven't seen before in any other country. If they are asked to work extra hours they do it, if they have to come in on the weekend they do it, and generally the staff don't ask or expect anything in return. They are just happy to have a job.
Take a look at the South China Sea dispute between those several countries who have a claim on those shoals, reefs, islands and sea area. Every other country was "talk, talk, talk"; China went and did something about it. There is no way anybody is going to bump them off those islands now (one of our planes actually flew down there and landed as a PR promo). That's what I mean, and that same attitude applies to their pilot requirements. They throw money at the problem and take affirmative action to do what needs doing.
The HR Department for the training department I was working in has 2 people, and it's a huge operation that is putting through 1000+ pilots per year. There is also an IR Department and I never saw anyone from that section in 3 years. For them an "already qualified applicant" is anyone in their early to mid 20's, likely has completed a university degree, is medically fit, and has a desire for a career as a pilot. There are millions of people in China who meet those requirements, no shortage at all.
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Old 24th Dec 2017, 03:17
  #422 (permalink)  
 
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Awesome gulliBell.

Problem solved!
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Old 24th Dec 2017, 03:38
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Sounds like we have a Chinese spy in here
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Old 24th Dec 2017, 04:24
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The Chinese have a "can do" attitude, and the staff all have a loyalty to the company to the extent I haven't seen before in any other country. If they are asked to work extra hours they do it, if they have to come in on the weekend they do it, and generally the staff don't ask or expect anything in return. They are just happy to have a job.
Whilst nothing detracts from the reality that a system set up to deliver a throughput of pilots, 'can' deliver that output, entrenched attitudes, regulations and workplace regulations get in the way. Something not often observed in a one party state. The fact that most western economies, are for the most part, not centrally planned (indeed planned at all!) means western airlines are generally not an extension of the state.

Most airline executives would be very enthused to have staff who work every weekend, extra hours and not expect anything in return. Staff just happy to have a job is what Australian industry craves and the continued importation of labour under various visas appeases many industry groups! They spend their waking hours trying to 'offshore' any job or service not nailed down or fill it with temporary (cheaper) labour. Western airlines have been frustrated in their endeavours by pesky labour relations laws from developing a form of industrial servitude that resembles an environment where workers do as instructed with a 'joy' that the most ardent central planner would applaud.

Take a look at the South China Sea dispute between those several countries who have a claim on those shoals, reefs, islands and sea area. Every other country was "talk, talk, talk"; China went and did something about it.
I am not sure airline training budgets extend to heavy machinery engineering nor armed flotillas. Nor am I sure that their knowledge of the law extends to sovereign territorial limits, freedom of navigation and nor would an airline executive contemplate establishing a 'base' were such efforts necessary.


Whilst it is admirable that some countries with a cohesive policy for aviation have demonstrated there are was to 'get things done' the separation of state and airline is such that a privatised airline in a western economy generally serves different masters than those from a centrally planned and governed one party state.

Last edited by Rated De; 24th Dec 2017 at 05:27.
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Old 24th Dec 2017, 05:50
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Originally Posted by KRUSTY 34
..Problem solved!
In some countries, yes; here, no. The problem isn't solved because there is no aviation CEO who can decree such a course of action, with appropriate budget, and make it happen. And the national culture to facilitate it doesn't exist anywhere near the same extent as elsewhere where cadet pilot programs do work. The easier solution was to leverage the political option and open the place up by way of a skilled migrant visa program. The downside is this will certainly restrict opportunities for those here trying to get their foot through the airline cockpit door after investing heavily in their own training.
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Old 24th Dec 2017, 07:59
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Sorry gulliBell, was my sarcasm a little too subtle for you?
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Old 24th Dec 2017, 08:53
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Originally Posted by KRUSTY 34
Sorry gulliBell, was my sarcasm a little too subtle for you?
Nah, easy to pick...
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Old 24th Dec 2017, 09:36
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Cadet programmes been used very successfully in UK for many years. Required as no large experienced GA or Military source available to the airlines.
Needs high quality selection and Flight Schools.

Following rigid selection criteria, 200+ hrs at flying training school, with CPL/IR and multi rating at end. ( ATPL exams passed and issue when hours acquired later)
In my UK airline cadets then went straight into RHS B737/A320/B757 after normal TR course.
RHS Base Training as required, followed by at least 50 route sectors with Training Capt. When released to normal 2 crew Line flying, rostered with Capts of at least a year experience for the first six months, on multi sector European routes.

Very successful and no flight safety issues. Many of the early cadets now retired or Capts on A380 and all wide body types.
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Old 24th Dec 2017, 09:37
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What gullibell is saying is more or less correct and in it's own weird and wonderful way the right way at the moment.

Throwing money at the problem!

- I don't see too many other countries setting up training schools in other countries to develop there up and comers,
- Pay expats such high rates to a/ fill in the numbers
b/ train and mentor their guys and girls.

Have you noticed how many new aircraft are on order around the world?

Has any one noticed airlines who normally don't have recruitment issues crying out for staff?

Things are changing and very quickly in terms of aviation.

in 5-10 years time it wont matter how many shiney new jets you have in your fleet or on order people will be saying how many are parked up.

I see airlines with hundreds of aircraft on order and I just sit and think yeah right-o-mate good luck with that.


Just my 2 cents worth.
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Old 24th Dec 2017, 10:44
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in 5-10 years time it wont matter how many shiney new jets you have in your fleet or on order people will be saying how many are parked up.
As I repeatedly state, this is a structural shortage.
The airlines that fail to unwind their adversarial models will lose out.
Australian airlines have enjoyed unparalleled access to pilots who;

  1. Had sufficient hours be they GA or military
  2. Had the requisite ATPL
  3. Had multi engine experience
  4. Had Paid for it themselves (or the taxpayer did)
The last funded cadet program for Qantas was on the eve of privatisation.



How Qantas unwinds their adversarial employee interaction model is anyone's guess. Given the protagonists (IR/HR) have had the run of the place for decades it is unlikely to change anytime soon.


Chinese carriers, funded by their government are simply extending the one belt one road model into aviation.


What will be really amusing to watch is the way the shortage plays out through the subsidiary airlines. Clamping down on pilots leaving Qlink for Qantas may further accelerate localised shortage.
Actually 'investing' in providing pilots with training and a career path will cost airlines. This cost will be borne as the structures in place are unwound. Replaced with a tangible investment in pilot supply is smart business: Pilots are strategic assets (Apologies to Mr O'Leary, Clifford, Rupert et al) Get pilots to pay for parking, uniforms and even their own interviews is something Mr O'Leary loved and has been embraced by other carriers too. Unwinding it will only begin in earnest when revenues are suffering due lack of supply...

When HR is a hammer, then any staff problem is a nail!
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Old 24th Dec 2017, 22:06
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Cessnapete,

The difference with cadet programmes in Europe is that they have experience doing it and the airlines provide the necessary resources for it. Apart from Jetstar nobody in Australia has a 0 to jet ab initio programme. They had awful problems with it at the start.

Australian operators just don't want to spend any money on training. Qlink went to the USA to try and get dash drivers because they thought they could get out of having to type rate people. They would also have instant command qualified FO's.

I laugh when the likes of Skippers and Corporate Air advertise for type rated pilots. How many out of work metro and dash drivers do they think are out there? Again just not wanting to invest in any training.
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Old 25th Dec 2017, 02:41
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How many Jetstar cadets have since left? I know some who are now at Emirates. Usually these programs are meant to give the carrier some medium term job security.
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Old 25th Dec 2017, 04:56
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Originally Posted by wheels_down
How many Jetstar cadets have since left? I know some who are now at Emirates. Usually these programs are meant to give the carrier some medium term job security.
A lot have left. (But there are many more where they came from!)

Once they have a bit of experience they are no different to any other pilot when it comes to being attracted to a job with better remuneration and/or conditions. They are almost always very young, with time on their side, to enable a move to a better position even if progression at the new carrier is slow.

Lots of ex-JQ cadets at many carriers including EK, QF and NZ. If Jetstar really wants to keep them for the long term then the conditions will need to improve (unlikely with inadequate pilot industrial cohesion) or they'll need to contract them in for a longer period.

PG
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Old 25th Dec 2017, 06:07
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If Jetstar really wants to keep them for the long term then the conditions will need to improve (unlikely with inadequate pilot industrial cohesion) or they'll need to contract them in for a longer period.
What would be the mechanism to bind a cadet to any operator? The Jetstar Cadet Booklet (V4) is very clear on the funding, it is up to the cadet to self-fund along with the Federal governments FEE-HELP program. Jetstar doesn't appear to put anything at stake - it has no skin in the game.

Traditionally, the binding mechanisms have been bonding for type course along with the more subtle denial of ICUS time, therefore preventing ATPL qualification. Close to command upgrade time, ICUS is then allowed to be logged, thus allowing the necessary ATPL.

Without the operator actually signing a contract to fund part or all cadet training, the self-funded cadet is a free agent.

Log book time is solely & irrevocable the property of the pilot, independent of the operator. I believe this was a the logic behind the now defunct MPL licensing system, where logged time only had value within an MPL operator's check & training system as I understand it (corrections please), and was not readily transferable to another operator.

As to increasing T&C, with or without industrial cohesion, Ryanair have demonstrated that improvements will occur when there are significant flight cancellations. As they say in commodities, the solution to low prices is low prices! The market ultimately will adjust, although the price discovery efficiency of the pilot market is low as the market power has largely been with a small number of operators, compared to the large number of individual pilots.

I would expect, just like Ryanair that there will be a discontinuity, ie no change, then a sudden significant change in pay in a single move. Something along the lines of a loyalty or incentive bonus, conditional on an extended period of service. The underlying contract may not alter much as operators do not want to lock in large contract increase future liabilities.
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Old 25th Dec 2017, 06:10
  #435 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Popgun
They are almost always very young, with time on their side, to enable a move to a better position even if progression at the new carrier is slow.
And there's the rub. I've bumped into a couple of ex J* Cadets in recent years. They're 10 years my junior, similar Jet experience (if not more) and in vastly better financial shape than I was at that age. Sure, they're missing a few thousand hours of GA and Turbo-Prop time, but at this level, no one gives 2 ****s about it. They have the freedom to go virtually anywhere in the world for another 5-10 years and still return home in their mid to early 30's. Why would they stay at J*?

Hate to admit it, but it does make me question my career to this point. Lots of great memories sure, but the future would be very different if I were 10 years younger with the same seniority number.
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Old 25th Dec 2017, 07:04
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FWA Press Release: Jetstar fined over breaches of workplace laws

Jetstar fined over breaches of workplace laws
6 February 2014

Two Jetstar companies have today been fined a total of $90,000 for unlawfully making six cadet pilots responsible for training costs and making deductions from their wages, despite receiving advice the deductions contravened workplace laws.

Jetstar Group Pty Ltd and Jetstar Airways Pty Ltd have each been fined $45,000 in the Federal Court in Sydney after admitting they breached the Fair Work Act.

The penalties are the result of legal action by the Fair Work Ombudsman.

The six pilots were recruited between October, 2010 and January, 2011 and were employed on New Zealand individual contracts through a New Zealand-based Jetstar subsidiary while they underwent six months of training.

At the conclusion of the training, the cadet pilots’ employment was transferred to Australian entity Jetstar Group.

Justice Robert Buchanan found that Jetstar continued to pursue plans to recover training costs from the cadet pilots despite advice that this was unlawful under Australia’s Air Pilots Award 2010.

Jetstar deducted a total of $17,500 from the cadet pilots’ wages between June and September 2011 before the practice was ceased and the money was returned to them in November 2011, following a legal challenge by the Australian Federation of Air Pilots (AFAP).

Deductions were made from all six pilots’ wages, including one pilot who had refused to agree to the deductions.

Justice Buchanan said that there was a lack of evidence of contrition or remorse from Jetstar.

"The respondents used their vastly superior bargaining power to effectively brush aside any personal resistance by cadet pilots, not desisting until the AFAP stepped in," Justice Buchanan said.

"The conduct of Jetstar Group and Jetstar Airways was calculated solely by reference to their assessment of their own commercial interests and their determination that the cadet pilots should be ultimately responsible for the cost of their training.

Justice Buchanan said the companies "undertook their contravening conduct notwithstanding advice (the substance of which is now accepted) that what they were proposing to do, and did do, was contrary to the Award and the Fair Work Act."

Imposing penalties at 68 per cent of the available maximum, Justice Buchanan said, "I think it is appropriate to mark the Court’s disapproval of what was done".

"A penalty should be fixed, if possible, with a view to ensuring that the risk of punishment is not seen as an acceptable cost of doing business."

The Fair Work Ombudsman's separate legal proceedings against Jetstar Airways Pty Ltd, as well as Singapore company Valuair Limited and Thai company Tour East (T.E.T.) Limited are ongoing.

In these proceedings the Fair Work Ombudsman alleges that cabin crew employed by Valuair and Tour East (T.E.T.) to work on domestic flights for Jetstar were subject to Australian workplace laws.

These allegations are being contested by Valuair, Tour East (T.E.T.) and Jetstar Airways. A hearing is scheduled for April 7 in the Federal Court in Sydney.

Employers and employees seeking assistance should visit www.fairwork.gov.au or contact the Fair Work Infoline on 13 13 94. A free interpreter service is available by calling 13 14 50.

The Fair Work Ombudsman's website contains a range of tools and resources, including PayCheck Plus and an Award Finder, to assist employers calculate the correct wages and entitlements for employees.

Other website resources include fact sheets, templates for time-and-wages sheets and a range of Best Practice Guides.

An "Industries" section on the website provides extra, specialised information for employers and employees in a range of industries, including retail, horticulture, road transport, accommodation and hospitality, cleaning, clerical, vehicle, electrical, fast food, building and construction, hair and beauty, joinery, metal manufacturing, social and community services, plumbing and security.


Original judgment: Fair Work Ombudsman v Jetstar Airways Ltd [2014] FCA 33
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Old 25th Dec 2017, 07:54
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"The conduct of Jetstar Group and Jetstar Airways was calculated solely by reference to their assessment of their own commercial interests and their determination that the cadet pilots should be ultimately responsible for the cost of their training.
It is the subjective determination of an airline that has to be shifted. The airline determines that the cadet pay, end of discussion.
As they say, everything is alright until it isn't. The practitioners have not yet accepted the shift in supply. Change will be forced when unable to attract suitable applicants over the business cycle (both up and down) In the interim denial and a continuance of current HR/IR practice is the order of the day.

Mr O'Leary gives ground only when necessary to address a specific concern, expect no less in Australia
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Old 25th Dec 2017, 09:16
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If the Executives of the company are knowingly breaking the law in this regard they are not fit and proper persons for holding these positions and thus their employment should be terminated "for cause" by their Company Board. Change must come from the top. A $45,000 fine isn't even a tank of gas for one of their planes. Good on the AFAP for rolling them on this one.
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Old 25th Dec 2017, 11:19
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Well said gulliBell.
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Old 27th Dec 2017, 00:23
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It's getting a lot more lucrative to become a pilot

By Marielle Segarra
December 26, 2017 | 9:30 AM

Zack Tusing is training to be a pilot. One of his favorite places to fly is a spot along the Hudson River, overlooking New York City. Sure, he says, it’s a little scary hovering next to skyscrapers and being suspended over water in a one engine Cessna.

"Other than that, it’s really cool," Tusing said. "Central Park is cool to see. Being right at the top of One World Trade Center is cool. You can see Yankee Stadium."

Tusing is 19, and he has been training to be a pilot since he was a toddler.

"When I was three or four, my dad would hook up, I think it was a Microsoft Flight Simulator 1995, on the computer, and I would just try to get the plane on the ground somewhere without crashing," he said.

When he took his first actual flying lesson at 13, the outlook for pilots wasn’t great. It was 2011, and there had been a decade of turmoil in the airline industry — with downturns after 9/11 and during the recession. About 10,000 pilots were furloughed.

Entry-level pilot salaries were about $22,000 a year on average, according to the aviation advisory firm FAPA. Meanwhile, training could cost five times that, says Wendy Beckman, who runs the aerospace department at Middle Tennessee State University.

"You heard stories of people on food stamps and living at home and sleeping in crew lounges," Beckman said.

Infinity Flight Group, a flight training school, opened a few years ago with a three-plane fleet. Now it has 25 planes and it's having trouble keeping up with demand.

Tusing didn’t want to give up his dream. In fall 2016, he enrolled in Penn State Abington’s business program, with plans to get his pilot’s license after graduation.

But there was a shift happening in the airline industry.

There’s a mandatory retirement age for pilots: 65. That time has come for a lot of them, says Gregory John, who runs Infinity Flight Group, the pilot training school Tusing attends.

"It's estimated [that in] the next 10 years, half of all pilots will be retiring from major airlines," John said.

The big airlines, like American and United, have hired more than 4,000 pilots this year — an eightfold increase from just five years ago, according to FAPA.


A lot of those pilots come from the regional airlines. That’s left the regionals with a pilot shortage. Last year, 35 percent of available pilot jobs at those airlines went unfilled, according to the Regional Airline Association. The regional airlines have had to up their game. They've more than doubled pilot starting pay, to almost $50,000 a year on average, according to FAPA. Regional airlines are also offering signing bonuses of up to $31,000, and they're helping to pay for flight training.

"They'll help pay for some of your flight training," John said. "They'll guarantee you a job."

Some are also relaxing their preference for a college degree. So in January, Zack Tusing dropped out of college to train as a pilot full time. Tusing has flown about 200 hours so far; he needs 1,500 to get hired at a commercial airline. He says it’ll probably cost him $80,000 all told. But he sees a real future as a pilot.

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It's getting a lot more lucrative to become a pilot




Desperately need pilots? Try paying them more

By Gigi Douban
September 16, 2016 | 7:15 AM

Two American Airlines subsidiaries announced plans to boost the starting pay for regional pilots, in some cases increasing pay by 56 percent. On top of that, the regional carriers, PSA Airlines and Envoy Air, will offer bigger sign-on and retention bonuses, all in the hopes the move will ease a pilot shortage.

Why the shortage? It’s way harder than it used to be to become a regional pilot. And the pay is terrible.

"There are plenty of new-hire pilots at regional airlines who are eligible for public assistance, for food stamps for example," said Gregg Overman, communications director for the Allied Pilots Association. Some regional pilots, he said, get paid less than $18,000 a year. Hence, the shortage.

"All airlines are just having a hard time right now finding enough pilots to fly the smaller planes at the pay rates that they’ve been paying," Seth Kaplan, editor at Airline Weekly, said.

New pilots for Envoy and PSA can make $58,000 a year. Kaplan said the airlines had to pay more or cut regional flights — the flights that help fill the seats on big planes.

"You need to be able to get people from Omaha to Chicago, to fill that flight from Chicago to Tokyo," he said.

Desperately need pilots? Try paying them more

Pilot shortage grows
But while Hawaii service flourishes, less glamorous regional airline markets throughout the U.S. are likely to continue suffering in 2018 as a nationwide pilot shortage gets worse.

The shortage has been a key factor in 20 U.S. airports losing commercial air service since 2013. Another 26 airports have lost at least 75% of departures, according to the Regional Airlines Association.

The shortage, which transportation economist Dan Akins said numbered 500 pilots in 2017, has also led to closures, bankruptcies and operational problems for regional airlines. In the most recent prominent example, Alaska Airlines’ regional subsidiary, Horizon, was forced to reduce its flight schedule from September through at least January. In September, Horizon canceled a whopping 6.5% of its flights.

With retirements at major U.S. airlines ramping up, Akins projects that the U.S. commercial airline industry will require 2,000 more pilots than will be available in 2018.

“Ramifications will be further reduction of regional operations, reduction or elimination in service to an increasing number of smaller communities, more carrier failures/bankruptcies, pressure on military to retain existing pilots for national defense and perhaps the start of airline funding of pilot training,” Akins said.

The shortage has led to various proposals in recent months to increase the legal avenues for aspiring pilots to obtain a commercial license with less than the required 1,500 hours of flight time.

Akins said that even if such changes are made, the shortage is sure to persist. “The lag time to train pilots is years,” he said.
Airlines: What the year ahead holds for the industry
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