Pilot shortage
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Just a cockamamie theory but I've observed quite a few guys on here stating they know people with a great deal of experience and others referring to their own significant experience and being rejected multiple times by airlines and therefore are skeptical of a shortage currently. Could a factor in this be that airline recruitment folk are looking at the 10,000+ hour people and looking at their age (40+??) and for whatever reason being deterred by one or both of these factors? Not too hard to think up reasons why in their infinite wisdom they are rejecting these applicants. You hear a story about being rejected by Qlink for not having sufficient IFR time but you have everything else in spades and then on the flipside I have friends that had the absolute minimums and no IFR time and were a walkup start. You just cant pick it.
That article is hilarious. They all either blamed each other, or said that there’s no problem. Apart from Dick Smith; who blamed regulators. Ironic.
Nobody said a word about the fact that Australian pilots are being paid far less than their equivalent counterpart. A Qantas A380 Captain is making the same amount of money as a Delta 737 Captain. The Australian aviation industry needs to learn that the days of bending pilots over a barrel are over.
FUPM.
Nobody said a word about the fact that Australian pilots are being paid far less than their equivalent counterpart. A Qantas A380 Captain is making the same amount of money as a Delta 737 Captain. The Australian aviation industry needs to learn that the days of bending pilots over a barrel are over.
FUPM.
Taking a few older applicants spreads the retirements out and avoids a block on upgrades as no one is leaving, followed by a large number of departures at the same time, putting a strain on training capacity as a high number of promotions will happen close together, which then also requires a new first officer to be brought in as a replacement.
A large number of junior captains and new first officers also gives rostering difficulties as they can’t be paired together. Overall experience heads south and insurance premiums may rise.
When Virgin Blue first started, they put second hand engines on some of their aircraft to avoid having serviceability disruptions and a sudden major expense which would happen if they all came due for overhaul at about the same time.
An older applicant brings experience into the company, is more likely to stay long term and spreads the age demographic out . This may compensate for the reduced return of service, difficulty in teaching an old dog new tricks and greater sick days.
A large number of junior captains and new first officers also gives rostering difficulties as they can’t be paired together. Overall experience heads south and insurance premiums may rise.
When Virgin Blue first started, they put second hand engines on some of their aircraft to avoid having serviceability disruptions and a sudden major expense which would happen if they all came due for overhaul at about the same time.
An older applicant brings experience into the company, is more likely to stay long term and spreads the age demographic out . This may compensate for the reduced return of service, difficulty in teaching an old dog new tricks and greater sick days.
That article is hilarious. They all either blamed each other, or said that there’s no problem. Apart from Dick Smith; who blamed regulators. Ironic.
Nobody said a word about the fact that Australian pilots are being paid far less than their equivalent counterpart. A Qantas A380 Captain is making the same amount of money as a Delta 737 Captain. The Australian aviation industry needs to learn that the days of bending pilots over a barrel are over.
FUPM.
Nobody said a word about the fact that Australian pilots are being paid far less than their equivalent counterpart. A Qantas A380 Captain is making the same amount of money as a Delta 737 Captain. The Australian aviation industry needs to learn that the days of bending pilots over a barrel are over.
FUPM.
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN13Q50C
Sounded good, but Delta's hourly rate sits marginally over virgin and below qantas.
A significant jump of 30% over this year
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I’ve been considering a move back downunder next year and AirNZ are recruiting straight into their jet fleets (mostly A320 it seems). My mate has just been given a seniority number on the jets but kept back on the Q300 because they can’t afford to lose him. He’s mentioned rumours of them joining the turboprop seniority list onto the bottom of the jet one, which would push me way down the list - and turbo flying aint for me! Anyone know what level of ‘fake news’ this is?
ha?
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/mobi.../idUSKBN13Q50C
Sounded good, but Delta's hourly rate sits marginally over virgin and below qantas.
A significant jump of 30% over this year
Don’t know about your background, so please forgive me if you already understand how this works.- Hourly rate $273 * 1100 hours = $300,300.00
- Profit Sharing is 15% of Gross = $45,000.00
Total Gross (without including company retirement contribution) = $ 345,345.00
Total Compensation (with company paid retirement contribution) = $ 400,600.00
In Oz dollars that’s:
$460,137.00, and
$533,759.00
notes
- doesn’t include per diem (allowances)
- The retirement contribution included number isn’t really relevant. Until retirement.
- The total gross is the number you’d see in W2 (group certificate).
- Used 1100 credit hours. It’s about average including training. Some more, some less.
- All numbers are current CBA (EBA).
- Used current 12 year 737 payrate. Since a Qantas A380 CA would have been there considerably longer.
The Qantas A380 numbers were posted by Keg or Isdon earlier.
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Not trying to give you a hard time, but - no
Don’t know about your background, so please forgive me if you already understand how this works.- Hourly rate $273 * 1100 hours = $300,300.00
- Profit Sharing is 15% of Gross = $45,000.00
Total Gross (without including company retirement contribution) = $ 345,345.00
Total Compensation (with company paid retirement contribution) = $ 400,600.00
In Oz dollars that’s:
$460,137.00, and
$533,759.00
notes
- doesn’t include per diem (allowances)
- The retirement contribution included number isn’t really relevant. Until retirement.
- The total gross is the number you’d see in W2 (group certificate).
- Used 1100 credit hours. It’s about average including training. Some more, some less.
- All numbers are current CBA (EBA).
- Used current 12 year 737 payrate. Since a Qantas A380 CA would have been there considerably longer.
The Qantas A380 numbers were posted by Keg or Isdon earlier.
It is not the hourly rate, that is the bait.
The landed cost in seat of crew is what matters (an all in cost)
Australian airlines pay under market.
This is precisely why any gang when things start going wrong blame each other: Dick Smith (irony) blaming regulation, GA blaming the regional airlines, major airlines blaming foreigners. This is part of the mean reversion we have spoken of elsewhere.
They will do everything until necessity dictates they do the right thing
Unions ought be expediting the mean reversion. Australian pilots at major airlines have lost a lot of ground on a like for like comparison.
When comparing US pay rates and Oz pay rates you should also include the career costs. How many times has the Delta pilot been furloughed and taken an income hit? The QF pilot who has spent the last 20-30 years in stable employment will still be better off than his/her US equivalent.
When comparing US pay rates and Oz pay rates you should also include the career costs. How many times has the Delta pilot been furloughed and taken an income hit? The QF pilot who has spent the last 20-30 years in stable employment will still be better off than his/her US equivalent.
Delta furloughed 15 years ago. Welcome to this decade. In 10 years half ( ~ 6000) of all Delta pilots will retire. They’ve hired the equivalent of the entire Qantas group in the last 3 years. When did Qantas last hire ? Never had your pay frozen with rising inflation, or been stuck in the wrong seat for a decade or two ? Thought so.
Rising tide should lift all boats. That’s the point you missed.
When comparing US pay rates and Oz pay rates you should also include the career costs. How many times has the Delta pilot been furloughed and taken an income hit? The QF pilot who has spent the last 20-30 years in stable employment will still be better off than his/her US equivalent.
Ansett? Compass mark 1 and 2? Qantas circa 2010 for LWOP? Half the GA companies in the top end? Most Delta pilot's wouldn't have spent the better part of a decade in GA flying 210's/Titan's around either to get a job at a legacy - yes EJ's etc for similar money, but it's never been for as long. Job stability in Aus hasn't exactly been fantastic either champ.
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... the junior Jetstar Captain who can double his pay and go straight onto an A330 in China...
Overwhelmingly, most JQ left seat guys (and gals) value the safety and security of living and working at home with industrial laws and representation, transparent seniority lists and connections to family, friends and culture without being exposed to the many career threats that accompany working for the Chinese et al. All while earning a not great, yet certainly liveable wage.
Its a shame really, especially at EBA negotiation time, when you hear the management quite correctly crowing, "Why should we pay you any extra? Nobody's leaving!".
Pilot shortage? Not for major jet carriers in Oz.
PG
Rising tide should lift all boats. That’s the point you missed.
Never had your pay frozen with rising inflation, or been stuck in the wrong seat for a decade or two ? Thought so.
Rising tide should lift all boats.
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Let me correct your last comment Popgun:
... IF there wasn't one as you mentioned, then:
- Why have all the jet operators lowered their entry requirements to never before seen levels? This was expected although delayed some many months after other airlines outside "Kansas" noted the issues and acted. Denial that there actually was a problem, has wasted many months;
- Why is there all of a sudden a huge need to scramble together Cadet Flying Schools, of which they are struggling to source enough suitable Instructors for, as they've left for greener pastures/more coin;
- Why are so many aircraft parked on the ground throughout Australia and secondary tier "support" airlines are flat out log jammed, trying to find & train enough crew to fill in these "outsourced" routes:
- Why are there never before seen Adverts seeking pilots on AFAP; SEEK; FlightGlobal Jobs etc, many of them entry level employments.
I won't go on.
Just open your eyes around the airports of Australia and look at how much expensive hardware is sitting idle!
I'm sick of hearing excuses and buck-passing or stupid claims of compensation of the likes REX made last week.
The industry is sick. CASA is sick. Many airline managements are sick (in Aust & abroad)... and they are definitely NOT the ones to fix the problem!
Why aren't they? They have not foreseen the issues earlier and made plans accordingly. Australia is fortunate to have alot of lead time to "read the play ahead", as it were but they haven't. Instead, massive multi million dollar bonuses and fat share bonus increases have been the order of the day. Much like RATED DE has been banging on about for ages, the days of confrontational industrial negotiation with unlimited labour supply have gone. There's a massive shortfall of pilots entering the industry, in favour of more lucrative professions.
It's a beautiful aphorism JPJP mentions above, which I should comment on.
"Rising tide should lift all boats." - Sadly it's not in Australia, it's only lifting the super yachts
The dingies (GA/Instructing/Regional Airlines/AG) are having trouble staying afloat!
Happy Landings
Pilot shortage... for all carriers in Oz.
- Why have all the jet operators lowered their entry requirements to never before seen levels? This was expected although delayed some many months after other airlines outside "Kansas" noted the issues and acted. Denial that there actually was a problem, has wasted many months;
- Why is there all of a sudden a huge need to scramble together Cadet Flying Schools, of which they are struggling to source enough suitable Instructors for, as they've left for greener pastures/more coin;
- Why are so many aircraft parked on the ground throughout Australia and secondary tier "support" airlines are flat out log jammed, trying to find & train enough crew to fill in these "outsourced" routes:
- Why are there never before seen Adverts seeking pilots on AFAP; SEEK; FlightGlobal Jobs etc, many of them entry level employments.
I won't go on.
Just open your eyes around the airports of Australia and look at how much expensive hardware is sitting idle!
I'm sick of hearing excuses and buck-passing or stupid claims of compensation of the likes REX made last week.
The industry is sick. CASA is sick. Many airline managements are sick (in Aust & abroad)... and they are definitely NOT the ones to fix the problem!
Why aren't they? They have not foreseen the issues earlier and made plans accordingly. Australia is fortunate to have alot of lead time to "read the play ahead", as it were but they haven't. Instead, massive multi million dollar bonuses and fat share bonus increases have been the order of the day. Much like RATED DE has been banging on about for ages, the days of confrontational industrial negotiation with unlimited labour supply have gone. There's a massive shortfall of pilots entering the industry, in favour of more lucrative professions.
It's a beautiful aphorism JPJP mentions above, which I should comment on.
"Rising tide should lift all boats." - Sadly it's not in Australia, it's only lifting the super yachts
The dingies (GA/Instructing/Regional Airlines/AG) are having trouble staying afloat!Happy Landings
Last edited by Chocks Away; 30th May 2018 at 07:24.
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Delta furloughed 15 years ago. Welcome to this decade. In 10 years half ( ~ 6000) of all Delta pilots will retire. They’ve hired the equivalent of the entire Qantas group in the last 3 years. When did Qantas last hire ? Never had your pay frozen with rising inflation, or been stuck in the wrong seat for a decade or two ? Thought so.
Rising tide should lift all boats. That’s the point you missed.
Very easy to miss a point that hasn't been made. You were just comparing current wages I was comparing career cycle costs. Have a read of Sully's book and I think you will get some idea of what has happened in the US during the past 20 years. Oz pilots will get a good retirement out of their super whereas US pilots pensions have been tied to the fortunes of the airlines. Its only been recently that the US has been hiring so all those Delta pilots furloughed 15 years ago have only just got their jobs back in this decade.
It is just as relevant to recognise the trajectory of the last decades is changing. Airline management (HR/IR) succeeded driving unit cost (terms and conditions) so low that the industry lacks sufficient supply. It is changing in all western economies facing an increasing retirement burden (pensions, healthcare) a declining birth rate and due lack of income growth stagnation of real wages. These two forces, insufficient remuneration and demographic pressures will eventually shift the supply curve to meet the demand: conditions will improve.
Airline management are not used to this change, they are set up to drive conditions in one direction only.
The rising tide is lifting all boats, it will not be linearly, but it will lift as is evidenced by airlines positioning the chess pieces.
Consider the quiet approval of skilled shortage visas ( 4 years for how long?) as the first volley.
It is disappointing the union leadership in Australia refuses to assist the industry move the supply curve for the betterment of all pilots.
Careflight are going to be on triple J this evening, talking about not being able to get aeromedical crew for the NT, that’s a good paying GA gig. That previously posted article spoke of QF lodging for 295 work visas, I’ve been told that Q Group will be hiring 5-600 for the year, that’s half..
