Pilot shortage
Very easy to miss a point that hasn't been made. You were just comparing current wages I was comparing career cycle costs. Have a read of Sully's book and I think you will get some idea of what has happened in the US during the past 20 years. Oz pilots will get a good retirement out of their super whereas US pilots pensions have been tied to the fortunes of the airlines. Its only been recently that the US has been hiring so all those Delta pilots furloughed 15 years ago have only just got their jobs back in this decade.
Much like your other assumptions-completely wrong.
What a stupid saying. Everyone knows that the tidal changes in Broome are lot bigger and more dramatic to those in Mallacoota.
Much like your other assumptions-completely wrong.
What a stupid saying. Everyone knows that the tidal changes in Broome are lot bigger and more dramatic to those in Mallacoota.
There’s so many inaccuracies in your post that it would take me an hour. I don’t think you have anything to learn - So I’ll stop wrestling with the proverbial pig.
Well if you have been in the States for the past 20 years it would follow that you know sweet FA about the Australian situation. A decade ago was the GFC. I doubt that more pilots were recruited in that time in the US than were furloughed. Its only recently that the majors have been recruiting as heavily as they have. I stand by my assertion that the cost to pilots over their career has been worst in the US during your time there than my 20 years + in the Australian environment.
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Plan to keep troubled aviation sector in air amid pilot shortage
ANNABEL HEPWORTH
The Australian 12:00AM June 1, 2018
A high-powered advisory group to the Turnbull government is advancing plans to ensure there are enough pilots and aviation engineers “to keep Australians flying”.
The Australian can reveal Deputy Prime Minister Michael McCormack has been given a plan that outlines three priorities for the troubled general aviation sector, which has been complaining of crippling costs and red tape.
The plan was produced by the government’s General Aviation Advisory Group, chaired by Royal Flying Doctor Service chief executive Martin Laverty, and outlines a work plan for the group.
Mr Laverty said the plan “addresses critical issues of regulatory burden and ensuring sufficient workforce to keep Australians flying”.
Amid a pilot shortage that is a global phenomenon, the document identifies “workforce development” for the general aviation industry as a priority.
It also says a priority should be ensuring air safety regulation supports the general aviation sector through “clear, consistently applied and proportionally responsive administration”.
The other priority is for a long-term “strategic perspective” for general aviation, which provides links to areas not serviced by airlines but has been shrinking since 2010.
Writing in The Australian today, Mr Laverty says even the RFDS has struggled with the issue of pilot and engineer shortages.
“A solution is best advanced from within industry itself by encouraging young people into the profession,” Mr Laverty writes.
“Expanded industry training capacity will fulfil national needs and create export opportunities.”
Mr McCormack, who is also Infrastructure and Transport Minister, said he welcomed the “General Aviation Flight Plan” and had asked the Department of Infrastructure, Regional Development and Cities and the Civil Aviation Safety Authority to work with the group in responding to the three priorities.
Mr McCormack also said the advisory group would be continued a further two years to allow work outlined in the plan to be finished. Overseas airlines have poached major airline pilots and while Australia’s airlines had sourced pilots from general aviation, the sector has been shrinking. The situation has prompted the government to allow foreign pilots into Australia on two-year work visas to keep regional air routes operating, while Qantas’s regional arm, QantasLink, wants the government to extend the time foreign pilots can stay.
The group’s high-level strategy document says there are pressures on the sector, “such as an ageing workforce and commercial airline competition for personnel”.
The group will work with an existing panel, led by Australian Aviation Associations Forum chair and former Airservices boss Greg Russell, that is reviewing aviation skills and training.
The review is expected to be completed in the middle of the year.
The panel is aiming to make recommendations on supporting the training and retention of aviators and backing Australia as an exporter of aviation training and skills.
The “flight plan” document also says CASA should be given “guiding principles” for future administration of regulation as it applies to general aviation and suggestions to ensure rules are applied consistently.
The Australian 12:00AM June 1, 2018
A high-powered advisory group to the Turnbull government is advancing plans to ensure there are enough pilots and aviation engineers “to keep Australians flying”.
The Australian can reveal Deputy Prime Minister Michael McCormack has been given a plan that outlines three priorities for the troubled general aviation sector, which has been complaining of crippling costs and red tape.
The plan was produced by the government’s General Aviation Advisory Group, chaired by Royal Flying Doctor Service chief executive Martin Laverty, and outlines a work plan for the group.
Mr Laverty said the plan “addresses critical issues of regulatory burden and ensuring sufficient workforce to keep Australians flying”.
Amid a pilot shortage that is a global phenomenon, the document identifies “workforce development” for the general aviation industry as a priority.
It also says a priority should be ensuring air safety regulation supports the general aviation sector through “clear, consistently applied and proportionally responsive administration”.
The other priority is for a long-term “strategic perspective” for general aviation, which provides links to areas not serviced by airlines but has been shrinking since 2010.
Writing in The Australian today, Mr Laverty says even the RFDS has struggled with the issue of pilot and engineer shortages.
“A solution is best advanced from within industry itself by encouraging young people into the profession,” Mr Laverty writes.
“Expanded industry training capacity will fulfil national needs and create export opportunities.”
Mr McCormack, who is also Infrastructure and Transport Minister, said he welcomed the “General Aviation Flight Plan” and had asked the Department of Infrastructure, Regional Development and Cities and the Civil Aviation Safety Authority to work with the group in responding to the three priorities.
Mr McCormack also said the advisory group would be continued a further two years to allow work outlined in the plan to be finished. Overseas airlines have poached major airline pilots and while Australia’s airlines had sourced pilots from general aviation, the sector has been shrinking. The situation has prompted the government to allow foreign pilots into Australia on two-year work visas to keep regional air routes operating, while Qantas’s regional arm, QantasLink, wants the government to extend the time foreign pilots can stay.
The group’s high-level strategy document says there are pressures on the sector, “such as an ageing workforce and commercial airline competition for personnel”.
The group will work with an existing panel, led by Australian Aviation Associations Forum chair and former Airservices boss Greg Russell, that is reviewing aviation skills and training.
The review is expected to be completed in the middle of the year.
The panel is aiming to make recommendations on supporting the training and retention of aviators and backing Australia as an exporter of aviation training and skills.
The “flight plan” document also says CASA should be given “guiding principles” for future administration of regulation as it applies to general aviation and suggestions to ensure rules are applied consistently.
Captains at regional airlines and the likes of the rfds should be able to enjoy a lifestyle and be remunerated accordingly. Simple fix, put the pay up and hire enough pilots to provide the lifestyle.Prior to 2010 the gap between regional and majors wasn't so large, nor was the gap between cost of living and income. Raise the pay - pilots will be attracted to these jobs and won't leave. It doesn't need a review
Here we go yet again
I'm starting to wonder if all these so-call free-market capitalist politicians and business owners are actually closet members of the communist party.Very simply people are going to foreign airlines because they are getting paid 2-3 times as much as they are in Australia. The very same reasons that the same people bragged about how cheap pilot labour was in the past is now working in reverse. Noone is being poached. It is how the system works.
And it is very possible that the current economics of aviation in this country is actually broken and that people are not paying enough to travel.
Captains at regional airlines and the likes of the rfds should be able to enjoy a lifestyle and be remunerated accordingly. Simple fix, put the pay up and hire enough pilots to provide the lifestyle.
OR
keep the pay as it is and return the regional lifestyle.
Every one seems to hate Darwin because of its isolation and wet season weather but ignore the pluses, twelve minute commute at the very worse in peak hour, very good community and activities available. Careflight absolutely top notch employer, you won't get any better in GA - no I don't work for them.
Job vacancies: Why more emergency pilots and nurses are needed in the NT - Hack - triple j
Job vacancies: Why more emergency pilots and nurses are needed in the NT - Hack - triple j
I believe that is the American regional with the same name. Australian companies...
I take no joy in that either, it seems Australia always reverts back to two airlines, albeit with two low cost subsidiaries.
"A high-powered advisory group to the Turnbull government is advancing plans to ensure there are enough pilots and aviation engineers “to keep Australians flying”."
One wonders if they have a Plan B in case nobody wants to take up the offer?
One wonders if they have a Plan B in case nobody wants to take up the offer?
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Airline management have levered outsourced labour, greenfield company and subsidiaries as far as the law permitted. The pursuit of lower labour unit cost a preoccupation. The result is terms and conditions heading in one direction for over 30 years.
Unfortunately HR/IR modelling contained a fundamental flaw: The entire thing was predicated on the assumption that there would be a never ending supply of self funded, committed individuals signing up.It will not be the 'effort' of organised labour levering the upwards pressure, it is demographics. Stir in a large financial barrier to industry entry (cost of training) and a small available 'talent' pool and it becomes the stuff of nightmares for airline HR who are, after all, very used to getting their way.
Globalisation had very real detrimental impact on real income and standard of living for the middle classes in all western economies. Senior management (s) love the flexibility, offshoring jobs, departments and industries. Those workers left competing against 'skilled shortage' guest workers..Conditions only went one way
Unfortunately for airlines at least, globalisation is a two way street.
Unfortunately HR/IR modelling contained a fundamental flaw: The entire thing was predicated on the assumption that there would be a never ending supply of self funded, committed individuals signing up.It will not be the 'effort' of organised labour levering the upwards pressure, it is demographics. Stir in a large financial barrier to industry entry (cost of training) and a small available 'talent' pool and it becomes the stuff of nightmares for airline HR who are, after all, very used to getting their way.
Globalisation had very real detrimental impact on real income and standard of living for the middle classes in all western economies. Senior management (s) love the flexibility, offshoring jobs, departments and industries. Those workers left competing against 'skilled shortage' guest workers..Conditions only went one way
Unfortunately for airlines at least, globalisation is a two way street.
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They will do everything, and then the law of demand and supply ultimately ensures they do the right thing.
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Probably organising some sort of war so the RAAF has to ramp up pilot and engineer training. Governments are good at that stuff..not much else
Back in the late 1990s a mate of mine was a pilot for the RFDS QLD section. I remember him telling me that he earned less than the flight nurse, and this was in a job which was regarded as one of the best going in GA.
Many suitable people looked at the investment involved and lack of reward at the end, unless you were in the tiny percentage that got into QF/AN and took their talents into a different area. The hard yards required at the time were another deterrent as not everyone was prepared to go bush to start filling up their logbooks.
Employers who previously wouldn't have even looked at you without an endorsement and time on type have had a huge reality check. We are effectively missing a whole generation of pilots who should be working in the middle of the industry between the entry level job and airline jet. Previously they would be the airline recruitment pool whilst providing valuable experience for employers who needed more than a bare CPL. The training they could provide based on real world experiences rather than simply following a text book was priceless to new pilots entering the industry
The tree has been shaken to death by now and no more pilots are falling out.
Many suitable people looked at the investment involved and lack of reward at the end, unless you were in the tiny percentage that got into QF/AN and took their talents into a different area. The hard yards required at the time were another deterrent as not everyone was prepared to go bush to start filling up their logbooks.
Employers who previously wouldn't have even looked at you without an endorsement and time on type have had a huge reality check. We are effectively missing a whole generation of pilots who should be working in the middle of the industry between the entry level job and airline jet. Previously they would be the airline recruitment pool whilst providing valuable experience for employers who needed more than a bare CPL. The training they could provide based on real world experiences rather than simply following a text book was priceless to new pilots entering the industry
The tree has been shaken to death by now and no more pilots are falling out.
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If a shortage arrives, squeeze the nasty HR types so hard you can see their balls dangling from the bottom of their trousers (and the female equivalent). You make the conditions to tough ticket prices have to increase - permanently.
Best of luck.
PM
Best of luck.
PM
Thread Starter
Ha ha I’m with Piltdown on this.
If the industry can get through this without ticket prices going up a dollar here and there then market forces haven’t really acted.They have been circumvented somehow ( 457 visas and IR tactics, negotiations not taking advantage of the market etc) , I doubt that will happen, we’ll probably see a ‘pilot levy’ on tickets lol. Management would love it, they’d be able to have scores of conversations both in private and in the media about greedy pilots forcing the good people of Australia to pay more for their travel.
If the industry can get through this without ticket prices going up a dollar here and there then market forces haven’t really acted.They have been circumvented somehow ( 457 visas and IR tactics, negotiations not taking advantage of the market etc) , I doubt that will happen, we’ll probably see a ‘pilot levy’ on tickets lol. Management would love it, they’d be able to have scores of conversations both in private and in the media about greedy pilots forcing the good people of Australia to pay more for their travel.
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Ha ha I’m with Piltdown on this.
If the industry can get through this without ticket prices going up a dollar here and there then market forces haven’t really acted.They have been circumvented somehow ( 457 visas and IR tactics, negotiations not taking advantage of the market etc) , I doubt that will happen, we’ll probably see a ‘pilot levy’ on tickets lol. Management would love it, they’d be able to have scores of conversations both in private and in the media about greedy pilots forcing the good people of Australia to pay more for their travel.
If the industry can get through this without ticket prices going up a dollar here and there then market forces haven’t really acted.They have been circumvented somehow ( 457 visas and IR tactics, negotiations not taking advantage of the market etc) , I doubt that will happen, we’ll probably see a ‘pilot levy’ on tickets lol. Management would love it, they’d be able to have scores of conversations both in private and in the media about greedy pilots forcing the good people of Australia to pay more for their travel.
David Andrew gets over 8 million. Yet we are making up total BS with pilot levies on tickets? Any other self imposed scare tactics?
Just about every news article reports a pilot shortage with credible facts and figures including large salaries in China. Well in excess of what an A380/330/747/737 pilot in QF earns. The problem is getting worse. Not even seen the start of the retirement wave yet.
You even have Alan Joyce and the QF Chief Pilot admitting to a shortage issues in news articles. Every day another article on pilot Shortages with the data on pay and statistics and numbers.
Others provide accurate figures of US airline pay which should also mention the cheaper cost of living and lower taxes in the USA.
In any other profession you’d be seeing significant wage rises OR if not pay rises, improvements such as rostering or earnings stability in SH.
Sadly poor representation and a majority of weak minded and punch drunk members will ensure that pilots lose in both in good times and bad. Pilots are very good at flying aeroplanes and that’s it.
It doesn’t really matter if there is a massive Shortage or a small one or none at all.
The Qantas EA negotiators backed by IR and exec are vastly smarter, more strategic and know the multitude of weak spots. Wish it were otherwise.Look at the latest Comfort letter fiasco. After trading off a multitude of conditions to get 787s, AIPA got double bluffed again. What’s the trade off for the next tranche of replacement aircraft?
Perplexed as to how some here(apart from the obvious QF management/IR trolls) could lead a race to the bottom at such a time. In any environment terms and conditions continue to get worse or at best stall. Perhaps the grossly high executive pay is in fact warranted? Perhaps they are worried about an executive bonus levy on tickets? I suspect not.
Best of luck in EA negotiations. The last win the pilots had was not thanks to AIPA or it’s pilots but Fair Work.
So the Qantas CEO makes 30 million dollars and is the highest paid CEO in the Country. It’s been in the news.
David Andrew gets over 8 million. Yet we are making up total BS with pilot levies on tickets? Any other self imposed scare tactics?
Just about every news article reports a pilot shortage with credible facts and figures including large salaries in China. Well in excess of what an A380/330/747/737 pilot in QF earns. The problem is getting worse. Not even seen the start of the retirement wave yet.
You even have Alan Joyce and the QF Chief Pilot admitting to a shortage issues in news articles. Every day another article on pilot Shortages with the data on pay and statistics and numbers.
Others provide accurate figures of US airline pay which should also mention the cheaper cost of living and lower taxes in the USA.
In any other profession you’d be seeing significant wage rises OR if not pay rises, improvements such as rostering or earnings stability in SH.
Sadly poor representation and a majority of weak minded and punch drunk members will ensure that pilots lose in both in good times and bad. Pilots are very good at flying aeroplanes and that’s it.
It doesn’t really matter if there is a massive Shortage or a small one or none at all.
The Qantas EA negotiators backed by IR and exec are vastly smarter, more strategic and know the multitude of weak spots. Wish it were otherwise.Look at the latest Comfort letter fiasco. After trading off a multitude of conditions to get 787s, AIPA got double bluffed again. What’s the trade off for the next tranche of replacement aircraft?
Perplexed as to how some here(apart from the obvious QF management/IR trolls) could lead a race to the bottom at such a time. In any environment terms and conditions continue to get worse or at best stall. Perhaps the grossly high executive pay is in fact warranted? Perhaps they are worried about an executive bonus levy on tickets? I suspect not.
Best of luck in EA negotiations. The last win the pilots had was not thanks to AIPA or it’s pilots but Fair Work.
