Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

CNS RWY15 EOSID

Old 1st Sep 2016, 10:29
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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If that's the procedure with Cathay, shotgun never flying with Cathay out of Cairns!!! That's just plain stupid and scary!

The procedure we have is exactly as per the SID initially until established on track 030.

In the event of a go around, below the MDA we fly the EOSID, above the MDA we fly the published missed approach procedure. There are 2 MDA's on the ILS depending on your MA climb gradient.

As I said in my initial post Algol, without knowing what the actual EOSID you use is, how can anyone give you an answer? And I've never seen Minimum Flap Retract Altitude referred to as the MFRA. Where I work, we just call it the EO Acceleration Altitude.

morno
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Old 1st Sep 2016, 10:35
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Please provide us with the chart, would be very interesting!
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Old 1st Sep 2016, 10:41
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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The 15 RNP procedures Missed Approaches take you "down the valley" and then north east over the water, not left at the minima.
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Old 1st Sep 2016, 10:43
  #24 (permalink)  

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The EOSID on RWY15 (I'm talking ENGINE OUT people, PLEASE RTFQ) is to go straight out for 11DME CS (the VOR), then make the turn (right) back to CS. The idea being (I presume) to put you in the valley out there and then start your manoeuvre back to CS within it.
In that case, every one's gona die!
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Old 1st Sep 2016, 10:45
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Perhaps stating the obvious here, but not having flown any of these big machines, don't you have engine out performance sufficient to make the minimum climb out gradient on the published SID? I was under the impression that the big jets would generally be able to make the minimums and not have to rely on special company procedures.

Just asking, don't start calling me names just yet please Algol!
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Old 1st Sep 2016, 10:54
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Heathans and Luddities! I'm Flying with Algol!!



don't you have engine out performance sufficient to make the minimum climb out gradient on the published SID? I was under the impression that the big jets would generally be able to make the minimums and not have to rely on special company procedures.
On the contrary, twins, especially heavy ones, can be gutless, and making 3.3% (or 4% to 600ft) at 25deg AOB can limit your takeoff weight. "Down the Valley" could drastically improve your uplift.
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Old 1st Sep 2016, 11:02
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Algol. Of the three A330 Airlines I have worked for, all specify a runway end turn to track 015 with a failure on Rwy 15. If your company maintains runway track for 11 miles, then whether you accelerate to green dot or not, the end result is going to be the same!!
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Old 1st Sep 2016, 11:04
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks Cap'n Bloggs, makes sense.

PS, just another thought - that procedure would have to be premised on an engine failure in a very small window (after being able to stop on the runway but before commencement of the 400 ft / DER turn, wouldn't it? I'd assume that once the turn was started you'd continue onto the north-eastery SID track rather than reverse and head out down the valley ... again, just asking.
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Old 1st Sep 2016, 11:08
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Bloggsy that looks good if you're doing RNP, but Algol has given very little info AND is saying it's a RIGHT turn once at 11 miles. Guess they might be able to knock Mt Bellenden Kerr down a few feet.

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Old 1st Sep 2016, 11:13
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Capn Bloggs, you have published a missed approach chart, which has no relevance to an EOSID. For starters an EOSID has to be based on MTOW, 50 feet above the upwind threshold - with an engine failed. A missed approach starts at the Missed approach point at MDA (and MLW). In an A330 that's around 50 tonnes lighter!!
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Old 1st Sep 2016, 11:17
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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That's the RNP missed approach though, not a SID. Haven't seen any EO SIDs for CNS that didn't involve a sharp left at the end of the runway.

Very keen to see this procedure Algol is describing.
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Old 1st Sep 2016, 11:30
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Capn Bloggs, you have published a missed approach chart, which has no relevance to an EOSID.
I am well aware of that. A missed approach from .8nm at 200ft will be similar to an EOSID. I merely posted it to show that "down the valley" is doable. I assumed that the professionals on here would be able to work that out.

We shall now wait for our mate Algol to further detail exactly what it is that LIDO has come up with.
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Old 1st Sep 2016, 11:53
  #33 (permalink)  
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Well the conversation is becoming slightly more courteous now, and we're actually making progress.

I have no map to show you. We use an EFB (with LIDO Data) and the EOSID instructions are in text only.
Yes, I can read English. It REALLY says "Climb straight ahead to 11DME CS, Turn RIGHT back to CS, proceed outbound to UPOLO and Hold. DO NOT EXCEED 200KTS in the turn".

Now if you buggers think that's STUPID don't flipping blame me - I didn't design it, and I can't hardly believe they are telling us to do it. I agree, its mad, and that's why I asked what OTHERS are doing.

The BIG problem is - LIDO (a reputable providor) say this is indeed viable - and they stand by it.
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Old 1st Sep 2016, 12:02
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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FOR CASA APPROVED OPERATORS ONLY

Bloggs,
Out of interest, how many operators are approved to fly that RNP Engine Out Missed Approach?
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Old 1st Sep 2016, 12:02
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Unless you work for a very small operator, and from what is being said here I get the impression you work for Cathay, LIDO would just be the messenger. I.e. Your ops engineering department would have designed the procedure and sent it to lido for inclusion in the performance data package.

It should give you an engine out acceleration altitude which is different to the two engine acceleration altitude and varies from runway to runway.

As for the civility of the discussion a good hard look in the mirror might be in order as I found your initial response to my post ******* annoying to be blunt. And it got worse with comments like RTFQ!

As it turns out we were talking at cross purposes as you were looking at your EOSID and I (and most others) were looking at what is the common one described in a number of posts where you turn at the runway end, but we were not to know that.

As for what you have labelled abuse, re read the comments from Morno and myself. I said "I suspect" and Morno said "there is a good chance that" neither of us said you were, but suggested the possibility. If this is abuse then we have different interpretations of abuse.

And finally, if I didn't know better the EOSID you describe would be more fitting off 33, but I have not looked at cairns for some time so whether there is something to hit inside 11 DME to the north I can't remember. The only real way of finding out I suspect is to contact your ops engineering department - not flight ops - and ask them the question. Running a dummy departure off 33 and seeing what the EOSID text says might give a clue also. If it says turn left someone has cocked the two up!

Last edited by Snakecharma; 1st Sep 2016 at 12:13.
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Old 1st Sep 2016, 12:03
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Algol View Post
I agree, its mad, and that's why I asked what OTHERS are doing.
They're turning left at 2.6 DME.
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Old 1st Sep 2016, 12:18
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Algol,

We have a similar EO procedure for departures off 07L/R in HKG. That procedure requires us to continue on the SID (ie runway track) to 8DME, then turn right and track 190, with a maximum speed of 220kt until tracking 190 or above 2,500ft AAL. Green Dot will be above 220kt in a heavy aircraft, so we would fly it as follows:
  • Level acceleration to 220kt at 1,500ft AAL with flap retraction to Flap 1 (if required).
  • Continue climbing at 220kt with Flap 1
  • Once tracking 190 or above 2,500ft AAL, continue climbing, accelerate to Green Dot and clean up.
Could you not fly your company's EO SID out of CNS the same way (at 200kt of course!)?


Snakecharma,

CX does not use LIDO charts and the procedure Algol described does not belong to CX!

Last edited by BuzzBox; 1st Sep 2016 at 22:34.
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Old 1st Sep 2016, 12:28
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Buzzbox, thank god for that!

I must admit I was surprised as it would I suspect be quite exciting in a heavy aeroplane with an engine failure at the most inopportune time!
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Old 1st Sep 2016, 12:39
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Out of interest, how many operators are approved to fly that RNP Engine Out Missed Approach?
Dunno.....
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Old 1st Sep 2016, 13:34
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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On the 737 QF used to do an RNP departure up the valley as a trial, then went back to left turn.
Airbus never went up the valley, one engine or two.
They also spent many millions of dollars trying to make LIDO work for them before giving up!
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