Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Qantas retro livery 737

Old 11th Nov 2014, 01:51
  #21 (permalink)  
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Sadly the HS125s never carried the ochre scheme. This is the final scheme carried by VH-ECE at retirement in 1981:

VH-ECF was sold in 1972 and never carried this scheme.

Last edited by Fris B. Fairing; 13th Nov 2014 at 04:49. Reason: Correction: Orange scheme applied only to VH-ECE
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Old 11th Nov 2014, 03:58
  #22 (permalink)  
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Wow that cheat-line looks really good. I used to think that each successive scheme was better than the last but that looks pretty fine and will really stand out from the masses.

Another distinguished scheme was this one:

However I highly doubt Qantas would ever concede to anything other than 'Qantas' being displayed on the side of an aircraft. TAA it seems has been relegated into oblivion.

As Fris B. mentioned, a sensible (non-Boston School of Consulting or Irish equivalent) retro board would be wonderful.

Of particular note: Qantas’ chief financial officer Gareth Evans has written an opinion piece for The Age, in which he says the airline won’t be conceding any of its 65 per cent market share to Virgin.

“Imagine someone saying Woolworths should start closing stores in response to the threat from Coles,” he said.

“Anyone who advocates this kind of approach simply does not understand the way business works.

We plan to keep improving and strengthening our competitive advantages.”

Qantas has decided 65 per cent is where it’s drawing the line in the sand, convinced it cannot lose this ground to its arch rival Virgin Australia.

So they almost did immediately concede the 65 percent which by his own arrogant words means this man does not understand the way business works!

It beggars belief these people are running Qantas. With such blatant acts of stupidity evident what goes on that we don't hear about?
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Old 13th Nov 2014, 01:24
  #23 (permalink)  
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Apparently the 737-800 is due for delivery to Qantas/arrival in Australia next Wednesday, 19th November.
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Old 13th Nov 2014, 01:49
  #24 (permalink)  
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Regarding market share:

The share of the market that an enterprise enjoys has always been the prerogative of the market. Even my teenage kids know that, FFS. If a chain was run by idiots insisting on keeping a thousand unpatronised stores open would they still have 65% market share? They'd certainly have the lion's share of the costs, but not so much for revenue.

Gareth is an empty suit. Anyone who has survived the last ten years of fawning acquiescence to a failed strategy is, by definition, equally wanting in both the courage and foresight departments.
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Old 13th Nov 2014, 02:36
  #25 (permalink)  
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Sadly the HS125s never carried the ochre scheme. This is the scheme they carried at retirement:
Even sadder, some years ago the weather had reduced ECE to this:

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Old 13th Nov 2014, 03:10
  #26 (permalink)  
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For the young one who don't know.

The 2 x HS125's were only used for Pilot training. Jet Conversion before sim's became the norm and the odd pleasure flight for the then Directors but predominately for Pilot training and were painted in the original penny kangaroo red colours - TILL one dark and stormy day at Avalon when EBB, I think it was EBB, one of the classic jumbo, was doing training at Avalon touch and goes, had a close encounter of the ramp when taxiing and was close to taxiing over the top of one. That's when they were painted ORANGE - Not pretty but very visible.
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Old 13th Nov 2014, 03:38
  #27 (permalink)  
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For the record, the -SP did go TSV-HNL prior to [basically] moving long-haul stops to CNS.

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Old 13th Nov 2014, 04:23
  #28 (permalink)  
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I flew in one of the two SPs VH-EAA twice, SFO-HNL (1982, they had just invented business class and it was downstairs at the very front) and SYD-LAX nonstop (1984, I think, by this time first class had been moved downstairs).
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Old 13th Nov 2014, 04:58
  #29 (permalink)  
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I have just corrected my post #22 to show that only VH-ECE carried the orange scheme. VH-ECF was sold in 1972.


It was my understanding that the orange scheme was to make the aeroplane more visible during radar tracking exercises under contract to the military although your explanation is equally feasible.

For more info on the HS125s

If anyone knows the current owner of VH-ECE, please lean on him to do the right thing with this aeroplane. Pick a museum - any museum.

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Old 13th Nov 2014, 05:13
  #30 (permalink)  
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That photo and a number of others were taken at The Oaks, near Camden. (Not by me.) A quick look at Google Earth suggests it's still there.

I believe it was owned by an ex-Flight Engineer but that was years ago.

It would be nice to see it restored to something of it's former state and perhaps parked in Longreach.
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Old 14th Nov 2014, 11:04
  #31 (permalink)  
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Ochre Scheme

Hi 34R,
My Dad worked for QF (or should I say EM and then they changed to QF) for 32 years.
He joined the year before they got the B707-138 and left a year or so after the B747-438s arrived. When he joined their round-the-world service originated and terminated at Essendon with L1049 Super Constellations.
Point being, for all that time my Mum collected Qantas News so they basically have every edition (including the one announcing my birth) up until recently (thanks to ex QF colleagues who still drop in and see him). I was there for 12 years or so.
Anyway, there was a poster in the QF News of a B747 in this livery in about '68, a month before a B707 V-Jet which I took to school and never got back (damn). Other than that the collection is complete and they also have old 'In Flight Guides'. This livery was decided on (allegedly) in 1967 but not applied until the first B747-238B arrived in '71. It was then quickly applied to a B707 (VH-EAG I think, then the rest of the fleet). In one of the In Flight Guides is a B707 V-Jet and on the next page a B747-138 (complete with 3 windows on upper deck) in a livery with black radome, thick red cheat line and a red tail with a winged kangaroo in a white circle!! They must have decided a new scheme was timely but they left that re-touched (presumably Pan Am) 747-100 in the guide for quite some time.
Hence, the aircraft that featured this livery were indeed the B707-338C, B747-238B, B747-238M, B747-SP-38 (with window shade red 'SP' in between QANTAS and Australia and white 'SP' on the top of the tail) and the DC-4 - the HS125s also had a 'version' of this, with the stripe at the base of the windows. I believe as there were different ground equipment requirements for the SP (e.g. no Bulk Hold door) this was done so Ground Staff would know at a glance it was an SP from a distance or in a line of tails.
I remember in one of the QANTAS News Staff papers there is a photograph from about '71 of a B707-338C outside the hangar at the Jetbase with the heading "A 707 with a 747 look about it!" (the article described how the B707 fleet would be progressively re-painted to ensure a consistent corporate look.
There is a photo I have somewhere of a model in Aircraft Magazine with a B767-238ER in the ochre livery (a few years before there was one in the Ansett delta livery too) however these were delivered in the Lunn design.
From B747-338EUD (QANTAS eschewed 'SUD' because it stood for 'Sudden Unexplained Death in ER terms, preferring 'Extended Upper Deck' to 'Stretched Upper Deck') the Lunn group wingless kangaroo featured. It started to slowly appear on B747-238Bs, the -SPs and then the Combis over the next few years. When I started there was a mixed livery in the fleet, one SP in wingless and one in winged. The 'SP' titles were dropped with the new livery.
The B767-238ERs were delivered in the new livery. A year or so after the EUD arrived 'THE SPIRIT OF AUSTRALIA' was added under the windows below 'QANTAS'.
QF operated a B747-100 for a few years (VH-EEI) a B747-123 I believe, so ex AA originally) but it never got painted in QF Livery but spent it's life with QF in FJ colours. I always thought it'd be neat to paint it in the QF livery or do a 'fantasy retro' with it in the livery from the Flight Guide!.
Anyway, I seem to have strayed off the point but there you go, that's the history from what I can glean.
Incidentally, the only error I can see on the new one (except for no bare metal) is that the rego should be white and on the cheat line but the windows and the portion aft of the rear door don't allow for that as they did on the 707s.
I wouldn't have called it James Strong. I would have called it 'Ron Yates' and then done a T-Jet livery on an A330-200 or 717 and called it James Strong. JS at one stage wanted the name to be 'Australian' and did his best to expunge a lot of good practices at QF just because they were QF so just don't think it's appropriate. One thought was that they may have done it because he ordered the 737s at TN?
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Old 14th Nov 2014, 11:17
  #32 (permalink)  
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Yes and no.
During strikes - most notably the ATC Strike in '73 or '74 the HS-125 was used to ferry Management from SYD.
In a QANTAS News from that period there is a lone B707-338C at the JetBase (it was the ONLY aeroplane at SYD at that time).
I remember my Dad telling way back (I'll confirm it with him) that this was the LAST B707-338C to depart SYD at that time and ferried Ramp, Passenger Handling, Load Control and Flight Ops Staff to MEL which became the busiest airport in Australia for a period of time.
Aircraft would arrive in MEL, be unloaded, then the Engineers had organised a system of towing them to taxiways in a departure order arrangement. So once a gate became available, they would tow the next one up, depart it, tow the next one and so on. This went on for a month apparently or more. Flights would come into MEL, people would clear customs, collect bags, walk to a bus, then go direct to Spencer St Station (now Southern Cross) and travel on to SYD via Daylight or Southern Aurora to SYD - I think they even had QF 'Flight' numbers - e.g. the train in the morning would 'operate' the MELSYD leg of QF6 or QF8. I remember Dad did a cartoon (he is also a cartoonist) of a VicRail Interstate Train painted red with "QANTAS - Australia's Round-The-World Railway" on the side!!!
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Old 14th Nov 2014, 11:26
  #33 (permalink)  
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Business Class

They did invent Business Class - it was in 1979 though. They had decided to put seats in the upper deck and someone with imagination asked around and found that either TN or AN had a surplus of DC-9 First Class seats because they'd over ordered so QF bought the lot (they were brand new), fitted them with QF seat fabric and installed them - calling it 'Business Class'.
Other airlines (such as Pan Am) claimed this but it WAS Qantas undisputedly that did this first.
A bit more of this innovative 'retro' thinking - which also led to life rafts on all aircraft world-wide, another Qantas innovation, would be welcome now days.
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Old 14th Nov 2014, 11:34
  #34 (permalink)  
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Al E Vator.

Too true. All the innovative QF Management got tossed out and replaced with cronies after the reverse take-over. One of these cronies even had to resign for directing QF paid consulting work to his own company!

Re the Retro - They could always do what US Airways did (before the AA/US Merger) and - for example - paint an aircraft in PSA Livery except have US Air on the side.

I think that it would be fine to paint the T-Jet Livery but instead of TAA put QANTAS in Blue in the TAA typeface, put TAA but have Qantas worked in in a lighter shade or just put Trans-Australia Airlines after the Word Qantas.

People would understand I think that it's a Qantas aircraft. You might get the occasional yank complaining - as happened a few times with the Air Pacific Aircraft that was actually owned and operated initially by QANTAS and was always operated and crewed by QF when it was operating QF17/18.

2016 would be the year to do this as it will be the 70th anniversary of TAA.

Last edited by AerialPerspective; 14th Nov 2014 at 11:36. Reason: added text
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Old 14th Nov 2014, 14:52
  #35 (permalink)  
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Thanks so much for those posts.
Your recollections have filled in quite a few gaps for me.

I don't know who was responsible for organising the Qantas retro paintjob but I dips me lid to him!
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Old 15th Nov 2014, 05:45
  #36 (permalink)  
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See, wait long enough and Legacy becomes Retro!

DC-4. Norfolk Island. 1976.

The DC-4, by the way, had exactly the same wingspan as the 737-800. [Within a few cms].
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Old 15th Nov 2014, 06:22
  #37 (permalink)  
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Gee wiz, flew on the HS125 many years ago HBA SYD!
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Old 15th Nov 2014, 07:03
  #38 (permalink)  
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If memory serves me correctly, the Flight Engineer who bought the HS125 (sans engines) was Graeme Onus. It's a shame that he wasn't able to restore it.
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Old 15th Nov 2014, 10:59
  #39 (permalink)  
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Stanwell actually it might have been a dedicated employee that made the suggestion to do a retro scheme a number of years ago but it was knocked on the head at the time.

Apparently the lower fuse is not in the natural metal finish as it voids the Boeing warranty in regards to corrosion.

Last edited by Maxmotor; 15th Nov 2014 at 11:01. Reason: grammar
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Old 15th Nov 2014, 11:14
  #40 (permalink)  
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Maxmotor, just an observation, so how has American Airlines got away with the natural metal finish all these years on their 737's then if that's the case?
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