300 Qantas pilots to get the chop ???
Not at all, just being realistic about the changing aviation landscape.
British Airways are now the only European Airline flying to Australia and now that Qatar Airways are in Oneworld it could prove cheaper to operate their high cost/low margin flights via a code share than using their own aircraft. BA pullout of Sydney and give the slots to Qatar, making more profit with a lower cost base partner doing the work.
Soon the kangaroo route will be Asian/Middle Eastern carriers only.
British Airways are now the only European Airline flying to Australia and now that Qatar Airways are in Oneworld it could prove cheaper to operate their high cost/low margin flights via a code share than using their own aircraft. BA pullout of Sydney and give the slots to Qatar, making more profit with a lower cost base partner doing the work.
Soon the kangaroo route will be Asian/Middle Eastern carriers only.
Soon the kangaroo route will be Asian/Middle Eastern carriers only.
Where's the arena when you need one??
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"If the QF pilots don't like what's on offer they go on strike until one side backs down."
Metro man, subsequent to the 1966 dispute, which I believe mainly revolved around the issue of seniority rather than pay, could you please specify the occasions when QF pilots have gone on strike.
Metro man, subsequent to the 1966 dispute, which I believe mainly revolved around the issue of seniority rather than pay, could you please specify the occasions when QF pilots have gone on strike.
Management obviously preferred to pay rather than have a strike, as evidenced by the terms and conditions of the pilots.
Striking Emirates pilots would find themselves sacked and deported very quickly. They would soon be replaced. Emirates management pay enough to retain their pilots and keep turnover at a manageable level. None of their pilots expect to retire in Dubai and many have an exit plan for when one of their two buckets (s**t/money) fills up.
Should EK have difficulty in attracting the quality of applicant they want they will simply increase the package. They are profitable and can afford to.
Striking Emirates pilots would find themselves sacked and deported very quickly. They would soon be replaced. Emirates management pay enough to retain their pilots and keep turnover at a manageable level. None of their pilots expect to retire in Dubai and many have an exit plan for when one of their two buckets (s**t/money) fills up.
Should EK have difficulty in attracting the quality of applicant they want they will simply increase the package. They are profitable and can afford to.
Nunc est bibendum
Another clown for the ignore list. Life is so much better than with these tools who have no idea as to the IR reality between Qantas and it's pilots for the last 40 years. Ignorant, ill informed, ideological driven dills.
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Sadly Australian Pilot jobs are being off shored by stealth , the foreign airlines with slave labour are unbeatable in our environment and as they expand they have reduced the size of QF International.
Domestic is. A safer option until these mega carriers buy them and alter conditions.
Jetstar International was a half hearted attempt to compete with the foreign carriers , it also has no chance , the war is not internal it's outside.
Between the ME carriers and the emerging Chinese ones Australian Aviation may not exist in 30 years.
Not to mention if QF relaxes the foreign ownership cap and becomes majority foreign owned it will be open slather an a blood bath on the domestic routes until the most efficient airline wins.
Lots more hurdles in the future.
Domestic is. A safer option until these mega carriers buy them and alter conditions.
Jetstar International was a half hearted attempt to compete with the foreign carriers , it also has no chance , the war is not internal it's outside.
Between the ME carriers and the emerging Chinese ones Australian Aviation may not exist in 30 years.
Not to mention if QF relaxes the foreign ownership cap and becomes majority foreign owned it will be open slather an a blood bath on the domestic routes until the most efficient airline wins.
Lots more hurdles in the future.
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Metro man you did not answer my question. You made the statement "If the QF pilots don't like what's on offer they go on strike until one side backs down."
I am simply curious as to on what occasions, post 1966, this group has done what you have stated. Please be specific.
I am simply curious as to on what occasions, post 1966, this group has done what you have stated. Please be specific.
I want an answer too, metrosexual man. My father was involved in that '66 strike and I remember it clearly (he worked as a labourer during the day and at the Post Office at night to make ends meet). Later, I was involved in what I believe was the next strike action by QF Pilots when I militantly made approved statements on a PA and wore a red tie. To be fair it was VERY (QF?) red, but again, even the non-fashion conscious tie was actually approved.
Answer please... My memory may well be incorrect.
For accuracy, I do need to add that AIPA also had approval for us to wear our (matching!) red armbands. It is probably fortunate that BGA had his epiphany and shut the entire airline down at an (admitted) cost of $200,000,000.00 rather than let the world witness the holocaust of industrial unrest that armbands would have wrought upon the world. It lives still (as I assume most of them do) unworn in my top drawer. I will save it to use as a last line of defence in case 'Ze Germans' invade. Things like armbands are powerful, and you can never be too careful!
Answer please... My memory may well be incorrect.
For accuracy, I do need to add that AIPA also had approval for us to wear our (matching!) red armbands. It is probably fortunate that BGA had his epiphany and shut the entire airline down at an (admitted) cost of $200,000,000.00 rather than let the world witness the holocaust of industrial unrest that armbands would have wrought upon the world. It lives still (as I assume most of them do) unworn in my top drawer. I will save it to use as a last line of defence in case 'Ze Germans' invade. Things like armbands are powerful, and you can never be too careful!
Last edited by V-Jet; 1st Jun 2014 at 12:10.
The threat of a strike is on the table during negotiations and that is enough. If you can get what you want by holding a gun to someones head there is no need to pull the trigger.
If the company knows that not agreeing to demands WILL result in strike action then the effect is the same.
QF pilots had the upper hand over the company where as EK management have the upper hand over their pilots.
Emirates are profitable, Qantas aren't. Emirates have competent management who have built a mega airline in less than thirty years. Kuwait Airways is a basket case despite enjoying many of the same advantages as Emirates, such as geography and labour laws.
E****d and Qatar have a bottomless pit of money to play with and can easily sustain losses until they have wiped out the competition, then the prices go up. Just like the big supermarket chains.
Qantas isn't the only basket case in the airline world, Malaysian Airlines are racking up massive losses due to overstaffing, inefficiency and corruption. The government can't/won't do anything because their own politicians have fingers in the till and any job losses would affect people who vote for them.
I'm simply stating the facts, no axe to grind.
If the company knows that not agreeing to demands WILL result in strike action then the effect is the same.
QF pilots had the upper hand over the company where as EK management have the upper hand over their pilots.
Emirates are profitable, Qantas aren't. Emirates have competent management who have built a mega airline in less than thirty years. Kuwait Airways is a basket case despite enjoying many of the same advantages as Emirates, such as geography and labour laws.
E****d and Qatar have a bottomless pit of money to play with and can easily sustain losses until they have wiped out the competition, then the prices go up. Just like the big supermarket chains.
Qantas isn't the only basket case in the airline world, Malaysian Airlines are racking up massive losses due to overstaffing, inefficiency and corruption. The government can't/won't do anything because their own politicians have fingers in the till and any job losses would affect people who vote for them.
I'm simply stating the facts, no axe to grind.
Metro Man..those are not facts, they are modern myth. Prior to Joyce's instantly conceived and executed lock-out, the pilots were in early negotiations with the company, and many improvements were in play. Instead, the lock-out took us a long way to our current trading losses, and he ended up with much less than he could have had for the asking.
QF made its record profit just prior to Joyce was appointed CEO. The dismal results since then speak for themselves. Hell, even the cook at my local noodle joint knows "Joyce very bad".
QF made its record profit just prior to Joyce was appointed CEO. The dismal results since then speak for themselves. Hell, even the cook at my local noodle joint knows "Joyce very bad".
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There are two sides to any argument d1ckhead. Credibility zero.
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I suspect not, but you can't negotiate from a position of weakness. His point is at EK pilots have only supply and demand to improve their lot. They cannot negotiate at all as they have no leverage. QF and any other union supported pilot group have at least that.
It is funny that some people think that EK or any other foreign carrier is an industrial nirvana.
Emirates don't retain people because they set their terms and conditions appropriately, they retain them because the alternatives are worse!
Don't get me wrong the money and conditions are OK, but no better than in Australia.
People don't stay in Emirates because they love the place, they are trapped with what can only be described as a 777 or 380 shaped straight jacket.
It isn't because they are rapturously happy as metroman seems to allude to, it isn't because of world leading T & C's, it is because in most instances seniority relegates anyone who leaves to junior FO status if they can get a gig in a "career" airline or they are stuck wandering the world as a contract pilot.
All the Middle East carriers (some worse than others) use the "beatings will continue until morale improves" theory and anyone who steps out of line very quickly has an attitude readjustment or a relocation (out of the Middle East).
I look on with amusement as some of the FO's I fly with describe how bad it is in my current airline and they look forward to getting a start with EK. Funny how most that have travelled that route last about 2-3 years (by which time the travel the world in my big wide body jet shine has worn off) and start seeing if they can come back into a command as they now have "international wide body experience"!
I wish the QF guys well, it seems to me that we are afflicted by the cheaper is better syndrome everywhere.
You can buy milk for about a dollar a litre retail, which means the dairy farmer gets naff all to produce it, same with veges and other staples, all because the "big 2" woollies and Coles are beating themselves to death trying to sell stuff cheaper to people who are not directly impacted by the lack of profitability caused by the cut throat pricing - pricing that is below the cost of production (sound familiar?)
Eventually the producers who funnily enough cannot sustain the losses associated with selling their product below the cost of production will up stumps and bugger off and we will be left with importing the product - be it veges from china, milk from NZ or airline seats from the Middle East or Asia.
We need a "way back" machine to go back and adjust the marketing that leads the great unwashed to believe that it is ok to pay $100 bucks for parking at the airport, but not ok to pay $100 bucks for the ticket they use to fly on the aeroplane worth nearly a $100 million dollars.
Sorry another long ramble - got to take the kids to school now!
Emirates don't retain people because they set their terms and conditions appropriately, they retain them because the alternatives are worse!
Don't get me wrong the money and conditions are OK, but no better than in Australia.
People don't stay in Emirates because they love the place, they are trapped with what can only be described as a 777 or 380 shaped straight jacket.
It isn't because they are rapturously happy as metroman seems to allude to, it isn't because of world leading T & C's, it is because in most instances seniority relegates anyone who leaves to junior FO status if they can get a gig in a "career" airline or they are stuck wandering the world as a contract pilot.
All the Middle East carriers (some worse than others) use the "beatings will continue until morale improves" theory and anyone who steps out of line very quickly has an attitude readjustment or a relocation (out of the Middle East).
I look on with amusement as some of the FO's I fly with describe how bad it is in my current airline and they look forward to getting a start with EK. Funny how most that have travelled that route last about 2-3 years (by which time the travel the world in my big wide body jet shine has worn off) and start seeing if they can come back into a command as they now have "international wide body experience"!
I wish the QF guys well, it seems to me that we are afflicted by the cheaper is better syndrome everywhere.
You can buy milk for about a dollar a litre retail, which means the dairy farmer gets naff all to produce it, same with veges and other staples, all because the "big 2" woollies and Coles are beating themselves to death trying to sell stuff cheaper to people who are not directly impacted by the lack of profitability caused by the cut throat pricing - pricing that is below the cost of production (sound familiar?)
Eventually the producers who funnily enough cannot sustain the losses associated with selling their product below the cost of production will up stumps and bugger off and we will be left with importing the product - be it veges from china, milk from NZ or airline seats from the Middle East or Asia.
We need a "way back" machine to go back and adjust the marketing that leads the great unwashed to believe that it is ok to pay $100 bucks for parking at the airport, but not ok to pay $100 bucks for the ticket they use to fly on the aeroplane worth nearly a $100 million dollars.
Sorry another long ramble - got to take the kids to school now!
Exactly, an expat is paid according to supply and demand. Airlines don't pay anymore than they have to and only for as long as needed.
SQ recently terminated their expats, however their pilots have a strong union, unlike most other workers in Singapore. Apart from the odd quarter or two the company is profitable with large cash reserves.
Air India keeps getting government bailouts as does Malaysia Airlines. There are too many negative consequences for their governments if they go under.
What happens if the company is neither profitable nor government subsidised ?
If AJs request for a $3 billion dollar loan has been rejected and the company continues to lose money, what happens next ?
SQ recently terminated their expats, however their pilots have a strong union, unlike most other workers in Singapore. Apart from the odd quarter or two the company is profitable with large cash reserves.
Air India keeps getting government bailouts as does Malaysia Airlines. There are too many negative consequences for their governments if they go under.
What happens if the company is neither profitable nor government subsidised ?
If AJs request for a $3 billion dollar loan has been rejected and the company continues to lose money, what happens next ?
Metroman, seeing you are unable to answer the questions asked of you, I shall have a stab at yours...
What should happen next is Alan, the chairman and the majority of the board should fall on their sword.
As has been intimated on these forums for a very long time, the Qantas strategy has been wrong for a very long time.
What you don't seem to grasp is the likes of Clifford and Joyce bully their way around employee relations, attempted to do so with government relations and treat the most important people, the paying customer, with sheer contempt.
There is no way Qantas should receive any government assistance for their failed strategy. They, (the qantas board) thought they could bully, threaten and ultimately beat their main domestic competitor by using their initial better fiscal position to sustain losses to kill virgin. Borgehtti out played them and was able to source funds to match qantas. For the first time, someone stood up to the arrogant bully... And look what happens, they back down. Because they have nothing when matched on equal terms. I acknowledge that virgin has also lost a truckload but it demonstrates the point of these bullies and what they will attempt to do.
As for employee relations, well enough said already. And as for the paying passenger....It is all about choice, and they are choosing. The answer to qantas' problems is not more jetstar.
A final question metroman. Why do qantas management continue to hang their hats on the Bain groups net promoter score as the be all and end all?
If everything is so great in net promoter score land, why are yields and profits so s#$%^house?
Answer: Net promoter score can be used to achieve executive bonus targets even with a reducing passenger number.
If AJs request for a $3 billion dollar loan has been rejected and the company continues to lose money, what happens next ?
As has been intimated on these forums for a very long time, the Qantas strategy has been wrong for a very long time.
What you don't seem to grasp is the likes of Clifford and Joyce bully their way around employee relations, attempted to do so with government relations and treat the most important people, the paying customer, with sheer contempt.
There is no way Qantas should receive any government assistance for their failed strategy. They, (the qantas board) thought they could bully, threaten and ultimately beat their main domestic competitor by using their initial better fiscal position to sustain losses to kill virgin. Borgehtti out played them and was able to source funds to match qantas. For the first time, someone stood up to the arrogant bully... And look what happens, they back down. Because they have nothing when matched on equal terms. I acknowledge that virgin has also lost a truckload but it demonstrates the point of these bullies and what they will attempt to do.
As for employee relations, well enough said already. And as for the paying passenger....It is all about choice, and they are choosing. The answer to qantas' problems is not more jetstar.
A final question metroman. Why do qantas management continue to hang their hats on the Bain groups net promoter score as the be all and end all?
If everything is so great in net promoter score land, why are yields and profits so s#$%^house?
Answer: Net promoter score can be used to achieve executive bonus targets even with a reducing passenger number.
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What's happened since AJ's $3b loan was passed over?
A. JQ Asia brakes applied on growth
B. Parked aircraft still observed in JQ Japan
C. Rumours of delayed 787 JQ deliveries
D. The not negotiable 65% line is the sand is withdrawn
E. An increasing amount of JQ widebodies observed parked in MEL & SYD when they should be flying.
Regardless of AJ and the boards fantastic contribution over the last few years & in no way a reflection of their outstanding performance. Its time for them to move on.
MC.
A. JQ Asia brakes applied on growth
B. Parked aircraft still observed in JQ Japan
C. Rumours of delayed 787 JQ deliveries
D. The not negotiable 65% line is the sand is withdrawn
E. An increasing amount of JQ widebodies observed parked in MEL & SYD when they should be flying.
Regardless of AJ and the boards fantastic contribution over the last few years & in no way a reflection of their outstanding performance. Its time for them to move on.
MC.
Hotnhigh...
+1 on your net promoter score comments.
On my last trip the CSM spent :30 minutes of bus time debriefing the pervious day's net promoter scores, comments and such. It was very, very earnest. At the end she thanked the crew for helping her achieve her KPIs.
Brave new world where you need a number to detect if you were providing the acceptable customer service. Back in the old days we just tried to be genuine, helpful and friendly.
Here's a question for anyone: why do we need KPIs with a supervisor for every three staff? Can't they tell in real time if you aren't doing your job?
+1 on your net promoter score comments.
On my last trip the CSM spent :30 minutes of bus time debriefing the pervious day's net promoter scores, comments and such. It was very, very earnest. At the end she thanked the crew for helping her achieve her KPIs.
Brave new world where you need a number to detect if you were providing the acceptable customer service. Back in the old days we just tried to be genuine, helpful and friendly.
Here's a question for anyone: why do we need KPIs with a supervisor for every three staff? Can't they tell in real time if you aren't doing your job?
Originally Posted by Australopithecus
On my last trip the CSM spent :30 minutes of bus time debriefing the pervious day's net promoter scores, comments and such. It was very, very earnest. At the end she thanked the crew for helping her achieve her KPIs.
