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300 Qantas pilots to get the chop ???

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300 Qantas pilots to get the chop ???

Old 14th May 2014, 18:14
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300 Qantas pilots to get the chop ???

Hi from the other side of the ball

Just read today an article in the SMH stating 300 QF pilots would get the chop, mainly on the 767 and 744 fleets.
Very bad news....to say the least.
How does this go with seniority as I suppose between the 2 fleets, there must be very big differences in seniority numbers.
8 380 delayed.....indefinitly ??!!! who would have thought this in 2008 !!
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Old 15th May 2014, 01:02
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This issue is already running on some other threads, but frankly I'm surprised that AIPA didn't move on it when Joyce first announced the cuts. Ostrich, grim resignation, NFI, who knows? Hell, I even brought it up on the 330 replacement thread. Lots of discussion followed, but no real consensus.

As far as I can tell, the seeds for this situation were sown 20 years ago with the incorporation of Australian Airlines. That was the time to push for a company wide scope clause WRT overall seniority. This would have made pilot redundancies (all pilot redundancies) simply financially impossible. The result would more than likely been a freeze on recruitment and natural attrition. Within five years, they probably would be looking for more drivers! The been counters usually don't look past the next financial years spreadsheet, so its not surprising they are keen for the current course of action. The failure to appreciate the future ramifications of this are now coming to pass.

I know that hindsight is a wonderful thing, but Jesus wept, Airline Management are nothing if not predictable.

I hope something can be done, but it seems to me this train is heading for the end of the line.
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Old 15th May 2014, 01:06
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20 years ago a group list was suggested .
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Old 15th May 2014, 01:22
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I know TM.

Unfortunately, that was the time for union "Leadership".
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Old 15th May 2014, 02:00
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Might have saved the situation if the retirement age stayed at 60
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Old 15th May 2014, 02:13
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I made a vow to retire the day I turn sixty, plus one day for every post/complaint/whinge about over-60s. So now I have to stay until I am 78. Happy?
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Old 15th May 2014, 03:06
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Krusty, admittedly I could be wrong, but I believe that everything you say should have been done in the past has in fact been done.

By that I mean, the Integration Award has coverage across both LH and SH in respect to redundancies in reverse seniority order. As you quite rightly point out this has made it financially unpalatable to undertake redundancies to date. This is a big reason why AIPA is keen to keep the Integration Award in place, despite the wishes of some to throw it out as part of the required award modernisation.

Furthermore, recruitment did stop about 5 years ago and natural attrition (plus assigned leave and LWOP) have been slowly dealing with the surplus. Sadly the downward spiral continues and leave balances have dried up so more dramatic options are being rolled out.

I don't think there is a hell of a lot more AIPA could have done to ward off this situation. AIPA are there to protect the interests of the pilots but the shareholders and board need to step in to stop the current management from driving this company into the ground.
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Old 15th May 2014, 03:27
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a history lesson

I'm with Australopithecus. Was it not the over 60 pilots who faced redundancy last time as young pilots? Now our young pilots are suggesting they should face redundancy for a second time? Me thinks this new generation of self absorbed precious youngsters need to realise that the world in fact does not revolve around them!
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Old 15th May 2014, 03:45
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how many of those 300 are on $500.000.00 a year or close to it, or is that only for A380 captains ? (no wonder QF INT r going broke)
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Old 15th May 2014, 03:56
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None. And no line captain is on anything like that. If QF had abandoned its idealogical purity (Pol Pot, anyone) they would have diverted surplus pilots into JQ long ago. And then we wouldn't have to read your foolishness.
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Old 15th May 2014, 03:57
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how many of those 300 are on $500.000.00 a year or close to it, or is that only for A380 captains ? (no wonder QF INT r going broke)
Answer with NO fear of being contradicted = NONE.

PS: I find that deeply upsetting. There is apparently substantiation for that figure, but let me assure you it is NOT many and I would suspect very, very few (1?) and absolutely NOT any of the targeted 'few'. Nor, let me add, is that anything to do with the fact QF is going broke. I am sick of saying that, but I will say it till my last dying breath. Every Captain on EVERY QF service could take off with max fuel and STILL not come close to the waste that gross mismanagement has and is causing.
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Old 15th May 2014, 04:02
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I made a vow to retire the day I turn sixty, plus one day for every post/complaint/whinge about over-60s. So now I have to stay until I am 78. Happy?
At that rate mate retirement should be in about 3014. You'll die in the seat.
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Old 15th May 2014, 04:29
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By that I mean, the Integration Award has coverage across both LH and SH in respect to redundancies in reverse seniority order.
does it? which part specifically. not asking to be a smartarse, genuinely want to know. I can guarantee you the company does not see it this way.

I know the integration award states that new hires go before a or q pilots, but where does it specifically state that it will be in reverse seniority regardless of which haul you're on? there is a strong argument t that it would be in reverse seniority but only on the haul that is making redundancies...
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Old 15th May 2014, 05:05
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Spot on Goodonya. Whether you agree or not, the pain will be felt most in the haul where the surplus lies. Works both ways.
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Old 15th May 2014, 05:35
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Integration award

Section 16 REDUNDANCY
Paragraph C. In the retrenchment of pilots on account of redundancy, before any A pilot or Q pilot is retrenched, new-hire pilots will be retrenched. New-hire pilots will be retrenched in accordance with the pilots agreement.

Definitions in integration agreement:
New hire pilot = after the Y
Pilots agreement = long haul award (now determination)

In long haul award - section 16.4 : promotion and demotion will be in accordance with seniority if redundancies occur.

There are more details and words in the agreements, so if you want a full idea, go read them.

Any other questions?

Last edited by bigwatch; 15th May 2014 at 05:39. Reason: More information added.
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Old 15th May 2014, 05:55
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how many of those 300 are on $500.000.00 a year or close to it, or is that only for A380 captains ? (no wonder QF INT r going broke)
Where is the ignore button for this High School dropout????
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Old 15th May 2014, 06:09
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Is the situation that occurred at Kendell with the CRJ an issue here? There was no waterfall of training after a court judgement the high cost of retraining trumped seniority in the end.
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Old 15th May 2014, 06:34
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I can guarantee you the company does not see it this way.
I can guarantee that it will not be the Company, AIPA, nor the pilots who determine the outcome!
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Old 15th May 2014, 06:50
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Section 16 REDUNDANCY
Paragraph C. In the retrenchment of pilots on account of redundancy, before any A pilot or Q pilot is retrenched, new-hire pilots will be retrenched. New-hire pilots will be retrenched in accordance with the pilots agreement.

Definitions in integration agreement:
New hire pilot = after the Y
Pilots agreement = long haul award (now determination)

In long haul award - section 16.4 : promotion and demotion will be in accordance with seniority if redundancies occur.
My bold.

Also from the Long Haul WD.

20.2 Application of Short Haul Workplace Agreement
Subject to clause 20.4, upon being cleared to the line on the B737 aircraft, the Short Haul Workplace Agreement will apply.
20.4 Specific provisions continue to apply
Notwithstanding clause 20.2, the following provisions in this Determination will continue to apply to pilots transferred to short haul operations:
Clause 23: Re-employment after medical termination
Clause 24: Leave Bank, preferential bidding and relief from flying
Clause 35.11: Personal leave - Medical Termination
Clause 43: Insurance cover in warlike circumstances
Clause 44: Internment
So the LH WD provides for redundancy in seniority, as does the SH award. The LH award also states that as soon as one checks to line, they are covered by the SH award. No where does it say that if the company is making redundancies in Long Haul, that a SH pilot will be made redundant.

Same goes if redundancies occur in SH.
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Old 15th May 2014, 07:06
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I wonder how long before AIPA splits; longhaul v shorthaul? Looks like getting nasty!
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