Practicing manual flying in jet transport ops.
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What some posters do not understand, notably the ex-air force, is that the modern cockpit environment is different from strapping on a jet fighter or a Cessna.
To start with you have hundreds of passengers behind you, think passenger comfort.
More importantly, a few knots too fast, a glide dot too high, a bank angle more than 25 degrees...there is no room for error. Not because we might fall out of the sky but because our OPS department is watching our every move. We have to operate to very strict limitations with regards to handling the aircraft and strict limitations with regards to the energy state and flight path. So add to that mix a rusty hand flown approach and no one who has any experience in modern commercial jets will doubt that the workload goes up quite a bit for both PF and PNF.
So no, flying a 320 or a 737 manually is not difficult, but the work conditions set by our employer and the fact that passenger comfort is also a factor make hand flying more challenging than in a Cessna or dare I say, a fighter jet.
And do not forget that in one month we fly more IMC approaches than any typical jet fighter or Cessna pilot in a whole year!
So yes, when conditions are suitable, I hand fly. Maybe once or twice a week (one week averages 16 flights).
To start with you have hundreds of passengers behind you, think passenger comfort.
More importantly, a few knots too fast, a glide dot too high, a bank angle more than 25 degrees...there is no room for error. Not because we might fall out of the sky but because our OPS department is watching our every move. We have to operate to very strict limitations with regards to handling the aircraft and strict limitations with regards to the energy state and flight path. So add to that mix a rusty hand flown approach and no one who has any experience in modern commercial jets will doubt that the workload goes up quite a bit for both PF and PNF.
So no, flying a 320 or a 737 manually is not difficult, but the work conditions set by our employer and the fact that passenger comfort is also a factor make hand flying more challenging than in a Cessna or dare I say, a fighter jet.
And do not forget that in one month we fly more IMC approaches than any typical jet fighter or Cessna pilot in a whole year!
So yes, when conditions are suitable, I hand fly. Maybe once or twice a week (one week averages 16 flights).
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First things first, some of us are not allowed to do any "practice" with fare paying passengers, its written into our Ops manuals…so we don't have the choice.
That is not to say hand flying isn't allowed, merely that it should be carried out in an operational setting that is appropriate.
To all those that roll their eyes and thump their chests ought to try flying for 14hrs across 10 time zones..and then figure out if a no FD/AT hand flown approach is a sensible thing to do..
For those who think its easy for the PNF when the other guy is poling it about…try launching out of Moscow, Beijing, LHR, or half a hundred other complex airports and watch the PNF slowing lose the plot.
I will quite happily hand fly out of LAX, JFK, SFO as ATC have a sensible "fly runway hdg…climb 8000' " mentality.
The tough guy mentality has NO place in transport airplanes, yes you do what needs to be done (including visual approaches, manual flight etc) but the reality is that if you don't use a skill you lose it, my operator has instituted manual flying sims into the training syllabus.
That is not to say hand flying isn't allowed, merely that it should be carried out in an operational setting that is appropriate.
To all those that roll their eyes and thump their chests ought to try flying for 14hrs across 10 time zones..and then figure out if a no FD/AT hand flown approach is a sensible thing to do..
For those who think its easy for the PNF when the other guy is poling it about…try launching out of Moscow, Beijing, LHR, or half a hundred other complex airports and watch the PNF slowing lose the plot.
I will quite happily hand fly out of LAX, JFK, SFO as ATC have a sensible "fly runway hdg…climb 8000' " mentality.
The tough guy mentality has NO place in transport airplanes, yes you do what needs to be done (including visual approaches, manual flight etc) but the reality is that if you don't use a skill you lose it, my operator has instituted manual flying sims into the training syllabus.
"H1" well put there
You will always get chest beaters on these pages on any subject.
Simply put, hand fly when it's suitable, low work load, alert & enthusiastic & BOTH pilots are okay with it, let the Sims take care of the rest.
Wmk2
You will always get chest beaters on these pages on any subject.
Simply put, hand fly when it's suitable, low work load, alert & enthusiastic & BOTH pilots are okay with it, let the Sims take care of the rest.
Wmk2
I have never been one to "practice" hand flying. I will sometimes hand fly if I am bored or if I think I can do it better than the autopilot (it's not a great autopilot), but I don't do it with the intent of improving my skills. I won't specifically do it before I go to the sim for instance.
The following is just my observations from flying short haul jet transport ops, your milage may vary.
In my experience hand flying lowers the workload of the PF and increases the workload of the PNF. It also reduces the situational awareness of the PF. Although hand flying is a more natural and physically connected process I think it tends to focus your attention a bit more on what you are doing and reduces your ability to absorb what's going on around you. I know that contradicts my statement that it lowers the PFs workload. I suppose what I mean is that the PF has less to do but uses more of their brain to do it.
On the other hand the PNF workload is necessarily increased. Whether or not that matters depends on what their workload was to start with. If there is a lot going on, lots of radio instructions, lots of SOP chatter, in a busy unfamiliar environment then a small increase in the PNF's workload might be detrimental to safe flight. If the PNFs workload is low to start with then it doesn't matter if they've got a few more jobs to do. It all comes down to doing it at the right time and place.
In the space of a month and a half I found myself having to fly 6 full sectors by hand due to autopilot failure. I can't say that more practice would have helped. I didn't feel I was any better at it at the end of the flight than I was at the start of the flight. I did do a better job than the autopilot, but that says more about the autopilot than me.
Ultimately I think that those who tend to do a bit of hand flying here and there probably don't really need to. Those who avoid it are the ones who need the practice, and they're the least likely to get it.
The following is just my observations from flying short haul jet transport ops, your milage may vary.
In my experience hand flying lowers the workload of the PF and increases the workload of the PNF. It also reduces the situational awareness of the PF. Although hand flying is a more natural and physically connected process I think it tends to focus your attention a bit more on what you are doing and reduces your ability to absorb what's going on around you. I know that contradicts my statement that it lowers the PFs workload. I suppose what I mean is that the PF has less to do but uses more of their brain to do it.
On the other hand the PNF workload is necessarily increased. Whether or not that matters depends on what their workload was to start with. If there is a lot going on, lots of radio instructions, lots of SOP chatter, in a busy unfamiliar environment then a small increase in the PNF's workload might be detrimental to safe flight. If the PNFs workload is low to start with then it doesn't matter if they've got a few more jobs to do. It all comes down to doing it at the right time and place.
In the space of a month and a half I found myself having to fly 6 full sectors by hand due to autopilot failure. I can't say that more practice would have helped. I didn't feel I was any better at it at the end of the flight than I was at the start of the flight. I did do a better job than the autopilot, but that says more about the autopilot than me.
Ultimately I think that those who tend to do a bit of hand flying here and there probably don't really need to. Those who avoid it are the ones who need the practice, and they're the least likely to get it.
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A37575....I like your thinking.
There was a similar debate on PPRuNe two or three years ago where there was a similar clash between the various generations currently flying in the airlines.
IMHO, there were some reasonably naive statements such as, "The days of switching off the F/D and A/T on a visual approach are long gone", and, "You old farts going on and on about manual skills....blah blah", and, "Flight management is the new world...blah blah", etc remain like a hot-iron in my side. I personally cannot fathom the ignorance of the importance of basic flying skills whether it's flying an A320 or a Vampire jet trainer.
I recall vividly flying an Ansett A320 as the F/O on an NDB approach into Kalgoorlie at night with a ****e-ton of information leaping out at me (from all that crap whizzing around on the PFD and ND) , and choosing to focus on attitude, snap-shot track (that's a bonus instead of heading!), altitude and the ADF needle with the F/D off (the youngish Captain was ready to transmit a mayday on that fact alone, I'm sure).
There are two points: the first is that I was relaxed because I knew the attitudes to achieve the desired performance (we learned those in Ansett way back then) and had that crazy old thing called a 'scan' (the whizz kids might need to google that); the second point is that if I tried to fly the approach with the A/P and F/D, I would have been like the proverbial 'one-armed-paper-hanger': even worse, if I hand-flew and had the PNF twiddle knobs, we would have both been loaded up more than needed.
One of the best things I heard from an old-bold was that Flight Director Bars are 'Suggestion Bars' – never a truer statement (particularly on a Boeing).
These days, I have a varied diet from ILS, LPV and EVS (google it, whizz kids) to totally manual circling approaches – and I love it.
My message is – embrace your inner pilot and fly manual attitude and power whenever you can safely do so; make it the norm when you are cleared to Angels 28 out of Sydney (and take note of the numbers) – the knowledge will serve you well when it hits the fan one day. All the digital stuff complicates the fact that power + attitude = performance. Your job is to know the first two bits; the rest is for show.
There was a similar debate on PPRuNe two or three years ago where there was a similar clash between the various generations currently flying in the airlines.
IMHO, there were some reasonably naive statements such as, "The days of switching off the F/D and A/T on a visual approach are long gone", and, "You old farts going on and on about manual skills....blah blah", and, "Flight management is the new world...blah blah", etc remain like a hot-iron in my side. I personally cannot fathom the ignorance of the importance of basic flying skills whether it's flying an A320 or a Vampire jet trainer.
I recall vividly flying an Ansett A320 as the F/O on an NDB approach into Kalgoorlie at night with a ****e-ton of information leaping out at me (from all that crap whizzing around on the PFD and ND) , and choosing to focus on attitude, snap-shot track (that's a bonus instead of heading!), altitude and the ADF needle with the F/D off (the youngish Captain was ready to transmit a mayday on that fact alone, I'm sure).
There are two points: the first is that I was relaxed because I knew the attitudes to achieve the desired performance (we learned those in Ansett way back then) and had that crazy old thing called a 'scan' (the whizz kids might need to google that); the second point is that if I tried to fly the approach with the A/P and F/D, I would have been like the proverbial 'one-armed-paper-hanger': even worse, if I hand-flew and had the PNF twiddle knobs, we would have both been loaded up more than needed.
One of the best things I heard from an old-bold was that Flight Director Bars are 'Suggestion Bars' – never a truer statement (particularly on a Boeing).
These days, I have a varied diet from ILS, LPV and EVS (google it, whizz kids) to totally manual circling approaches – and I love it.
My message is – embrace your inner pilot and fly manual attitude and power whenever you can safely do so; make it the norm when you are cleared to Angels 28 out of Sydney (and take note of the numbers) – the knowledge will serve you well when it hits the fan one day. All the digital stuff complicates the fact that power + attitude = performance. Your job is to know the first two bits; the rest is for show.
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Ultimately I think that those who tend to do a bit of hand flying here and there probably don't really need to. Those who avoid it are the ones who need the practice, and they're the least likely to get it.
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So you're downwind at 4000', gin clear day, number 1 in no traffic and the runway is firmly in sight to both of you. A/P, A/T and F/D's off.
Can someone explain what all this furious knob twiddling is that's required of the PNF , apart from maybe wazzing the heading bug to point in roughly the right direction?
Can someone explain what all this furious knob twiddling is that's required of the PNF , apart from maybe wazzing the heading bug to point in roughly the right direction?
I recall vividly flying an Ansett A320 as the F/O on an NDB approach into Kalgoorlie at night with a ****e-ton of information leaping out at me (from all that crap whizzing around on the PFD and ND) , and choosing to focus on attitude, snap-shot track (that's a bonus instead of heading!), altitude and the ADF needle with the F/D off (the youngish Captain was ready to transmit a mayday on that fact alone, I'm sure).
The newest FOs I fly with are very quick to turn off the automation on an approach. It's not because they are great at hand flying though, it's because they don't have a handle on the automatics and get scared into turning them off. As they get better at it they are able to manage the automatics better and aren't forced to revert to single pilot GA twin mode. I have actually heard the words "this is too hard" muttered under the breath one time just prior to <click click> hand fly time!
Big mitigating factor, it is an old autopilot that doesn't have niceties such as being able to select a defined VS or do a nice localiser intercept at much more than 180 knots. I fully understand that to people new to the aeroplane the A/P actually significantly increases your workload times. But as you come to learn to use the A/P you do get to the point where it decreases your workload. So although I think the new FO who turns off the automatics when he can't get them to do what he wants is doing the right thing for the situation, I also think it is a symptom of not knowing the aeroplane well enough.
Originally Posted by Homer Simpsons Lovechild
So you're downwind at 4000', gin clear day, number 1 in no traffic and the runway is firmly in sight to both of you. A/P, A/T and F/D's off.
Can someone explain what all this furious knob twiddling is that's required of the PNF , apart from maybe wazzing the heading bug to point in roughly the right direction?
Can someone explain what all this furious knob twiddling is that's required of the PNF , apart from maybe wazzing the heading bug to point in roughly the right direction?
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Aerocat...I had about 2000 hours on the A320 at the time and about 7000 total. I'm not saying I was the ace of the base, but I certainly embraced the automation. However, I also had the experience to know when A/P was not the best option – the autopilot does not know the meaning of NOW; it is great on a coupled approach, but my fear is that the average airline pilot these days is a servant of automation: I let it give me a helping hand but go back to basics as soon as it mis-behaves. If you delve into the books of Airbus and Boeing, it will say that very thing one way or another.
If any pilot does not have the ability to fly stress-free without an F/D, A/P and A/T, they should look for another job – you simply aren't cut-out to be a pilot. Harsh, I know, but true. Look no further than AF447.
If any pilot does not have the ability to fly stress-free without an F/D, A/P and A/T, they should look for another job – you simply aren't cut-out to be a pilot. Harsh, I know, but true. Look no further than AF447.
Last edited by FlareArmed; 10th Mar 2014 at 22:35.
However, I also had the experience to know when A/P was not the best option – the autopilot does not know the meaning of NOW; it is great on a coupled approach, but my fear is that the average airline pilot these days is a servant of automation:
However, I also had the experience to know when A/P was not the best option
On many occasions I have flown with people who are not good managers of their aircraft nor are they particularly talented at hand flying, however as soon as the workload increases, like intercepting the LLZ on an average day, off goes the autopilot and hand flying starts.
They believed that was appropriate. The dismal display indicated otherwise.
These same people consider themselves experienced and are now training and passing on these little gems to their trainees.
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I recall a post from several months back where a 737 F/O asked the captain would he mind if she disconnected the AP as she had an IR coming up and needed some hand flying currency (ie "practice").. They were about 15 miles from touch down slightly off set and on an intercept track to hit a Sydney 16 localiser at around 9 miles I think. Weather CAVOK.
Captain said no problem, fill your boots (or similar expression). F/O says "thanks - most captains I fly with don't like to hand fly"
Approaching LLZ intercept the captain remarked that F/O still had the AP engaged and when are you going to hand fly? Not yet says the F/O - I'll wait until the AP turns me on to the LLZ in case I overshoot the centreline. Captain shakes his head in wonderment. Now on final, F/O switches off the AP but leaves the FD on. Captain says when are you going to switch off the FD and fly raw data like in your CIR renewal?
F/O says she will leave the FD on just in case she has to do a GA. Captain says you don't need a FD for GA. Captain later asks where did you do your type rating, as he was concerned that the F/O had been brain-washed into automatics instead of balanced view of the need to hand fly.
That story is true. It suggests that sort of experience is common in Australian domestic operators ie reluctance to disengage AP even in appropriate conditions.
Captain said no problem, fill your boots (or similar expression). F/O says "thanks - most captains I fly with don't like to hand fly"
Approaching LLZ intercept the captain remarked that F/O still had the AP engaged and when are you going to hand fly? Not yet says the F/O - I'll wait until the AP turns me on to the LLZ in case I overshoot the centreline. Captain shakes his head in wonderment. Now on final, F/O switches off the AP but leaves the FD on. Captain says when are you going to switch off the FD and fly raw data like in your CIR renewal?
F/O says she will leave the FD on just in case she has to do a GA. Captain says you don't need a FD for GA. Captain later asks where did you do your type rating, as he was concerned that the F/O had been brain-washed into automatics instead of balanced view of the need to hand fly.
That story is true. It suggests that sort of experience is common in Australian domestic operators ie reluctance to disengage AP even in appropriate conditions.
no excuses in a shorthaul jet. And doesn't the 737 have FD 'pop-up' when TOGA is pushed? (its been a while)
One day you may be on the receiving end of "Murphy's Law" and be served up a turd sandwich...You may then have no choice but to Hand fly with "No Automatics" and plenty of other distractions to be managed...There are plenty of incidents even quite recently where this has happened. At the end of the day, this is what we are paid for.
I do acknowledge that there is a push by the airlines industry wide to encourage the maximum use of automation. However, Flying an aircraft is our bread and butter, and it behoves us all to maintain these "skills", whether that be in the aircraft or if SOP's do not allow in the Simulator. I do believe the Airlines Training departments should be dedicating more time in the Simulator to maintain and hone basic flying skills.
I do acknowledge that there is a push by the airlines industry wide to encourage the maximum use of automation. However, Flying an aircraft is our bread and butter, and it behoves us all to maintain these "skills", whether that be in the aircraft or if SOP's do not allow in the Simulator. I do believe the Airlines Training departments should be dedicating more time in the Simulator to maintain and hone basic flying skills.
Last edited by Jimothy; 11th Mar 2014 at 01:20.
And doesn't the 737 have FD 'pop-up' when TOGA is pushed? (its been a while)
)
I do acknowledge that there is a push by the airlines industry wide to encourage the maximum use of automation..........
I do believe the Airlines Training departments should be dedicating more time in the Simulator to maintain and hone basic flying skills.
I do believe the Airlines Training departments should be dedicating more time in the Simulator to maintain and hone basic flying skills.
That, combined with a greater emphasise on training scenarios in the simulator should go some way toward improving our manual manipulation skills -especially for those of us who do very few sectors (not by choice I'll add).
Originally Posted by Lookleft
Been a while for me but I do remember having to switch the F/D off on final when the A/P was disconnected. Pressing the TOGA button brought them back up.(Airbus you push for TOGA, Boeing you press)
Although we all have our learning curves, we weren't all born Aces of the Base. I distinctly remember my training on the 737, half way through the sectors, upon receiving track-shortening again, I went to disconnect and turn onto base, keen to show my trainer how well I'd learnt to fly the a/c. He told me to not do so and use the automatics "you need to be able to do everything with both".
Time and a place.
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it does have TOGA FD pop up so the story related by Sheppey is even more ridiculous with the Captain obviously not know a basic AF function of his aircraft in accepting the p!ss weak excuse from the F/O.
He presses the GA switch expecting the thrust levers to automatically go to GA thrust position. Having already simultaneously called for flap 15 as part of the GA procedure, he is surprised to see no throttle movement even though the FD may pop-up. Frantically presses TOGA again as speed drops off rapidly until he realises something is seriously amiss. Then the penny drops and he shoves open the throttles usually over-boosting in the process.
In my book, for a GA with manual throttles, it is prudent to first push open the throttles to approx. GA position while pitching to 15 degrees and calling for Flap 15. That is the priority. Then if you need FD guidance for GA (not important at that stage of the flight) then press TOGA. Blind reliance on pressing TOGA expecting the AT to give you GA power, is like crossing a road without checking all clear left and right. Not a wise move.
^^^ on that note, I like the airbus TOGA mode activation; slam em forward. does the thrust and AF mode.
not a big fan on the airbus AT system overall but that is nice
not a big fan on the airbus AT system overall but that is nice