MERGED: Alan's still not happy......
Because Camel sniffer it's an award condition with very strict rules on how to make pilots redundant. The brilliant managers never worked out how much it would cost before they decided to farm out the flying to Jetstar and Emirates. They even tried to force FWA into capitulating and it failed. Very poor decisions based on arrogance and unforgivable ignorance of the terms and conditions within the awards.
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why would any pilot anywhere ever feel guilty coming to work?
you have done all the training, you have achieved all the competencies, keep your health in order.
you've worked competently for the company for years.
in aviation there have always been 8 other people after your job.
that is just the statistics.
why the hell should you ever feel guilty about your job success?
a stupid wannabe argument.
btw I don't fly commercially but I don't envy any of them. good on 'em.
you have done all the training, you have achieved all the competencies, keep your health in order.
you've worked competently for the company for years.
in aviation there have always been 8 other people after your job.
that is just the statistics.
why the hell should you ever feel guilty about your job success?
a stupid wannabe argument.
btw I don't fly commercially but I don't envy any of them. good on 'em.
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I have to laugh at the line about the new Mascot campus 'not costing us a thing'. So the owners will spend all thier own money on renovations for free? Of course not, we are paying through higher lease payments so this furfy is just an example of how poor the truth is actually communicated.
Of course all the things wrong in Qantas are the fault of previous management when Qf was government owned. Under the first private management the buildings at Mascot (qcc,d etc) were sold. If my memory serves me correctly it was on a 10% yield with a 20 year lease and 5% rent increases per annum. That original buyer resold them in the early 2000s having made big money. Just another classic mistake by the boards and management who have bought this company to its knees.
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The Shovel.
The current pay structure within Qantas has pilots paid at a rate commensurate with the length of service they have been employed.
The scale is currently first year pay to year twelve pay.
When Qantas were recruiting in the late 90's and early turn of the century the average pay for an FO was for example closer to the year 8 pay rate.
Now every single Longhaul FO is on year 12 pay rate.
Again. My A380 Second officer example. In 2008 all Second Officers were on year 1 pay. Qantas are currently forcing First Officers (who are in the highest pay rate of year 12) back to the A380 as SO's.
The average rate of pay is now getting closer to 10 years and if nothing changes in a few years every SO on the A380 will be at year 12 pay rate.
As previously posted. The difference between year one and year twelve SO pay rate on the A380 is 83%.
All the flying around the group has to be crewed. Its just how the group choses to crew the flying.
The problem is the group is looking at pilot costs in isolation.
You say your a cadet. Wouldn't it have been cheaper for the group to have you join as a Second Officer on the A380 so that crewing costs on the A380 could be kept down?
Instead, by quarantining the groups of pilots. Instead of crewing an A380 with a year one pilot. They are currently sourcing pilots because of a surplus at the year 12 rate.
The group cost of pilot labour has continued to balloon cause JQ are continuing to recruit whilst QF mainline are carrying a surplus.
The current mainline surplus is just a little under 100 (excluding those on leave if absence)
However JQ continue to recruit whilst another part if the group is carrying a surplus. Surely its cheaper to utilise the pilots you already have rather than recruit more?
As for the forcing of pilots onto the A380 as SO's. QF ARE forcing pilots to the A380 as SO's who are currently widebody FO's.
So whilst the two pilot groups remain two distinct groups. JQ enjoy the benefit of new hires at the lower end of the pay rate. Whilst QF are paying maximum pay rates for the job a new hire should be filling with an increased cost of over $100k per year per SO.
MC.
The current pay structure within Qantas has pilots paid at a rate commensurate with the length of service they have been employed.
The scale is currently first year pay to year twelve pay.
When Qantas were recruiting in the late 90's and early turn of the century the average pay for an FO was for example closer to the year 8 pay rate.
Now every single Longhaul FO is on year 12 pay rate.
Again. My A380 Second officer example. In 2008 all Second Officers were on year 1 pay. Qantas are currently forcing First Officers (who are in the highest pay rate of year 12) back to the A380 as SO's.
The average rate of pay is now getting closer to 10 years and if nothing changes in a few years every SO on the A380 will be at year 12 pay rate.
As previously posted. The difference between year one and year twelve SO pay rate on the A380 is 83%.
All the flying around the group has to be crewed. Its just how the group choses to crew the flying.
The problem is the group is looking at pilot costs in isolation.
You say your a cadet. Wouldn't it have been cheaper for the group to have you join as a Second Officer on the A380 so that crewing costs on the A380 could be kept down?
Instead, by quarantining the groups of pilots. Instead of crewing an A380 with a year one pilot. They are currently sourcing pilots because of a surplus at the year 12 rate.
The group cost of pilot labour has continued to balloon cause JQ are continuing to recruit whilst QF mainline are carrying a surplus.
The current mainline surplus is just a little under 100 (excluding those on leave if absence)
However JQ continue to recruit whilst another part if the group is carrying a surplus. Surely its cheaper to utilise the pilots you already have rather than recruit more?
As for the forcing of pilots onto the A380 as SO's. QF ARE forcing pilots to the A380 as SO's who are currently widebody FO's.
So whilst the two pilot groups remain two distinct groups. JQ enjoy the benefit of new hires at the lower end of the pay rate. Whilst QF are paying maximum pay rates for the job a new hire should be filling with an increased cost of over $100k per year per SO.
MC.
So under that logic, keep hiring pilots in Qantas so you have 1st year SOs
Then as the guys get more senior give them commands and roster them blank lines to keep the SO and FO pay rates down.
The fleet is not expanding so they've got to be deployed somewhere.
Then as the guys get more senior give them commands and roster them blank lines to keep the SO and FO pay rates down.
The fleet is not expanding so they've got to be deployed somewhere.
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CamelSquadron,
I have no guilt at all coming to work, knowing that my EBA (or now, Workplace Determination) has provisions that discourage the company from making me redundant. I also have no guilt that there is a clause that says that the newest person hired is the first one to be made redundant, and so on. They are not unreasonable. There are major problems with a redundancy system that just kicks people off an aeroplane type, not least of all that no-one will ever want to fly a type that is even a possibility for retirement. Those who get assigned to it bidding off as soon as they can, increasing overall training costs for the company.
I'm also perfectly comfortable with the fact the extra dollars the company are spending in carrying a surplus is a mere drop in the ocean of the overall costs, and that more money is spent on parties, celebrations and wine than on keeping long term employees temporarily in work, especially when they will, in the not too distant future, be required again.
This management has incurred more in fines for engaging in illegal practices than it pays to manage the pilot surplus.
I have no guilt at all coming to work, knowing that my EBA (or now, Workplace Determination) has provisions that discourage the company from making me redundant. I also have no guilt that there is a clause that says that the newest person hired is the first one to be made redundant, and so on. They are not unreasonable. There are major problems with a redundancy system that just kicks people off an aeroplane type, not least of all that no-one will ever want to fly a type that is even a possibility for retirement. Those who get assigned to it bidding off as soon as they can, increasing overall training costs for the company.
I'm also perfectly comfortable with the fact the extra dollars the company are spending in carrying a surplus is a mere drop in the ocean of the overall costs, and that more money is spent on parties, celebrations and wine than on keeping long term employees temporarily in work, especially when they will, in the not too distant future, be required again.
This management has incurred more in fines for engaging in illegal practices than it pays to manage the pilot surplus.
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GG.
What I'm saying is better utilise the resources you have rather than continue to recruit new resources in other entities.
Why not utilise senior widebody FO's with 1000's of hours experience in Jetststar where guys and girls are happy to do that and take those terms and conditions.
Rather than send the most expensive of pilots back to the A380 as SO.
What's the logic of continuing to recruit at JQ whilst Qantas mainline had held a pilot surplus for nearly 5 years?
What I'm saying is better utilise the resources you have rather than continue to recruit new resources in other entities.
Why not utilise senior widebody FO's with 1000's of hours experience in Jetststar where guys and girls are happy to do that and take those terms and conditions.
Rather than send the most expensive of pilots back to the A380 as SO.
What's the logic of continuing to recruit at JQ whilst Qantas mainline had held a pilot surplus for nearly 5 years?
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What's the logic of continuing to recruit at JQ whilst Qantas mainline had held a pilot surplus for nearly 5 years?
Don't you remember? So QANTAS pilots don't pollute the culture at Australia's only 1 Star airline.....
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Don't you remember? So QANTAS pilots don't pollute the culture at Australia's only 1 Star airline.....
Even better, this narrative gets ideological kudos in Canberra where companies have to "help themselves first" [decode: sack workers on expensive agreements out of step with "community expectations*"] before the government could consider assistance.
Of course, if Alan gets his way, reduction in costs will simply allow the capacity war to be sustained for a little bit longer. All these saving will be expended trying to destroy JB & Virgin. This is the modern version of warfare, using workers as cannon fodder to support the leaders ego & status, rather than soldiers. Nothing will stop this until someone runs out of cash.
* Undefined term designed to appeal to envy.
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Much the same logic as employing extra people in Jetstar, then training guys to fly the A330 for Jetstar at the same time as carrying additional existing A330 qualified mainline pilots. Only to then retrain those Jetstar pilots a few years later to fly a Boeing 787. Meanwhile Qantas has an oversupply of pilots with thousands of hours on Boeing Widebodies.
Why does QF group continue to hire pilots when it has an excess??
Mainline pilots in their hundreds are showing they will accept different conditions by taking LWOP and working for other carriers.
Have the MOU & LWOP pilots polluted the Jetstar culture?
Why does QF group continue to hire pilots when it has an excess??
Mainline pilots in their hundreds are showing they will accept different conditions by taking LWOP and working for other carriers.
Have the MOU & LWOP pilots polluted the Jetstar culture?
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I have to laugh at the line about the new Mascot campus 'not costing us a thing'. So the owners will spend all thier own money on renovations for free? Of course not, we are paying through higher lease payments so this furfy is just an example of how poor the truth is actually communicated.
It must be difficult for those pilots to come to work every day without feeling guilty.
I'm sorry if I'm somehow missing the point of your comment, but it's one of the oddest things I've read on this forum. (And that's up against some pretty stiff competition.)
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Why is it a "Campus" and not a centre or a precinct? Oh yeah. I forgot ... "as a row of tents".