MERGED: Alan's still not happy......
Wait till EK buys Jetstar, you ain't gunna get sandwiches! And you won't be living in Melbourne.
As for the company surviving it won't and this is about Australia and corporate governance. Qantas link and Cobham will cost allocate profits and Jetstar will disappear. When will it end? When pilots stop being so selfish and stupid, in other words never!
As for the company surviving it won't and this is about Australia and corporate governance. Qantas link and Cobham will cost allocate profits and Jetstar will disappear. When will it end? When pilots stop being so selfish and stupid, in other words never!
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: here and there
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's another thing I can't understand. The First Class passenger gets off Emirates with 50 kilos of baggage, and rechecks onto Jetstar, how will that go down? And when they ask for their freshly brewed expresso, what will the answer be?
I don't get it.
I don't get it.
What happened when EK & QF tied up? QF was told to come into line with EK on baggage, cars for J/P pax etc, etc.
EK pax on JQ will have the same given to them. Whether is a code written into the booking program or whatever, it will come into line.
EK management don't make those sort of little mistakes that QF have been doing for the past decade.
Amen the shovel.
As for "just wait guys, It'll happen to other group companies" bla bla bla.
I doubt it. The other groups are paid the market rate. If anything below it. QF in most instances are well above it. Yes I'd love a QF roster and salary. We all would. It's not going to happen, and that's why the capital went where it went. Remember, it's not just the Pilots enjoying above market conditions. When coupled with all the add ons and dead weight, it's pretty substantial.
As for the rest. I remember sitting down with a senior group manager and asking why the expansion is in Jetstar (787) and not Qantas. The reply was the Jetstar pilot group costs 50 million less for the same safety data. Meaning why are we paying Qantas pilots 50 million more, for no more measurable increase in safety.
I'd prefer to earn less and know the company was viable and expanding, than earn more and have no progression and no future.
As for "just wait guys, It'll happen to other group companies" bla bla bla.
I doubt it. The other groups are paid the market rate. If anything below it. QF in most instances are well above it. Yes I'd love a QF roster and salary. We all would. It's not going to happen, and that's why the capital went where it went. Remember, it's not just the Pilots enjoying above market conditions. When coupled with all the add ons and dead weight, it's pretty substantial.
As for the rest. I remember sitting down with a senior group manager and asking why the expansion is in Jetstar (787) and not Qantas. The reply was the Jetstar pilot group costs 50 million less for the same safety data. Meaning why are we paying Qantas pilots 50 million more, for no more measurable increase in safety.
I'd prefer to earn less and know the company was viable and expanding, than earn more and have no progression and no future.
Except:
Jetstar is not making money.
Aside from that one tiny flaw, the argument is sound.
Jetstar is not making money.
Aside from that one tiny flaw, the argument is sound.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sydney
Age: 60
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ahh yes, the old "Qantas pilots are overpaid and underworked" myth
Talking to Jetstar guys I don't get paid much more and I have just lost a trip tomorrow due 100 hours in 30 days!
We are overweight in MANAGERS!
Some of those managers get paid by Qantas to do work for Jetstar - FACT.
The two brand group is a good idea, the application of it is not well done here.
I remember Dixon telling us "we had to start Jetstar before Stoddart starts an Airline!"
Talking to Jetstar guys I don't get paid much more and I have just lost a trip tomorrow due 100 hours in 30 days!
We are overweight in MANAGERS!
Some of those managers get paid by Qantas to do work for Jetstar - FACT.
The two brand group is a good idea, the application of it is not well done here.
I remember Dixon telling us "we had to start Jetstar before Stoddart starts an Airline!"
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Exiled in the Ukraine
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
and that's why the capital went where it went. Remember, it's not just the Pilots enjoying above market conditions. When coupled with all the add ons and dead weight, it's pretty substantial.
Cast your mind back a few years and you may remember before all the capital was transferred to Jetstar then you only had a few aircraft QANTAS was making over a BILLION DOLLARS in profit. As Jetstar expanded over the last 5-7 with Qantas capital our overall profits have decreased exponentially. FACT. What also cracks me up is AJ keeps on bleating about loads are up but yields are down! DER, AJ! thats what happens when you change your market to a low yield market and allow Virgin to cash in on the top end. You reap what you sow.
As for the rest. I remember sitting down with a senior group manager and asking why the expansion is in Jetstar (787) and not Qantas. The reply was the Jetstar pilot group costs 50 million less for the same safety data. Meaning why are we paying Qantas pilots 50 million more, for no more measurable increase in safety.
I'd prefer to earn less and know the company was viable and expanding, than earn more and have no progression and no future.
Here's a Joke for you GG.
Q: What's the difference between a Jetstar pilot and a pizza??
A: A Pizza can feed a family of 4.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: some dive
Posts: 448
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here's a Joke for you GG.
Q: What's the difference between a Jetstar pilot and a pizza??
A: A Pizza can feed a family of 4.
Q: What's the difference between a Jetstar pilot and a pizza??
A: A Pizza can feed a family of 4.
Suddenly I remember why I left Pprune in 1998 and a couple of times since.
You JoyceStar guys do realise that Cobham is doing it for even less money, don't you? I'd wager that they are singing the same smug song to themselves about trading salary for job security.
We are all victims of faulty perceptions on that score. But some of us have avoided the Stockholm syndrome along the way.
You JoyceStar guys do realise that Cobham is doing it for even less money, don't you? I'd wager that they are singing the same smug song to themselves about trading salary for job security.
We are all victims of faulty perceptions on that score. But some of us have avoided the Stockholm syndrome along the way.
GG, doesn't that comment concern you in the least? You're comparing the safety standards of company that has been around for a LOT longer than JQ, it's that really annoying phrase bean counters use at the start of a sentence "Statistically speaking..." which counts for nothing after that first incident which causes the statistics to now heavily swing back the other way!! Plus you really can twist statistics to say many many things that aren't necessarily true.
Maybe I'm naive, but I'd like to think that most in QF would be more than happy to accept increased "Efficiencies", whether this comes in the form of pay freezes, increases in the utilisation of hours available or having them move to JQ at the same pay rates that they get in QF.
Honestly I feel like the problem is coming from the Top though, they treat their staff like mushrooms, keeping them in the dark and feeding them s**t and just expect them to be good boys and girls and accept whatever is given to them, but human nature is not like that, they have to give the staff reason to trust them, they have to be more open and transparent and it very much seems like they aren't which creates a very resistive employee group. People do not like being kept in the dark, they don't enjoy the discomfort that comes from uncertain futures, things like announcing MONTHS in advancing that a 1000 staff will be cut but not releasing any real figures as to where this will come from is purely antagonistic.
I have no doubt there are major problems on both sides of the arguments, there are undoubtedly Pilots being selfish, personally I can't imagine what the heck I would do with $180,000/year let alone anything more, that would be AWESOME, so perhaps there needs to be a big wake up call to the Pilots to accept perhaps more realistic pay rates BUT at the same time the Management group has to be seen to be doing what needs to be done as well which would mean their own pay rates being adjusted by the same margins. Take the CEO of JAL who cut his own pay in half back in 2009 and I know the first thing someone will say is "Oh, but he didn't take his bonus..." Oh no, so you're telling me he will ONLY make 2 Million dollars this year?! what a travesty, how on earth will he manage to live on that?
At the moment it's all hack and slash, there doesn't appear to be any real revitalisation to Qantas Mainline only to Jetstar and it is a very obvious move to change things to a lower cost model and the staff are sick of being treated like idiots by management who continue to act like this isn't the case at all!! There is obviously no innovation within the Qantas Group at all, all we are seeing is a reduction in network size, a handing off of routes to JQ, getting cosy in bed with Emirates who will quite happily burn QF from the face of the earth if they get a chance and millions being wasted in overseas ventures which are dubious at best.
And to top it all off they make no real attempts to engage their workforce at all, they COULD make some kind of gesture to open a position for some real employees to be within the top level decision making group even if it just a token but they do not, they take no responsibility for past errors at all such as the APA Bid (oops, sorry everyone, we made a mistake but looks like we got away with it!) they offer no explanation for why when JQ was first started Dixon was stated as saying "he didn't think it would be more than 20% of the size of Qantas" and it now being closer to 60%. No explanation as to cross subsidisation of Jetstar (Shut up and stop asking seems to be the response) which others have come forth with evidence for, some of the LAMEs have shown that work done on Jetstar Aircraft was clearly paid for by Qantas Mainline. Then we have no explanation for a bunch of aircraft around the world which are sitting Idle, they cannot adequately explain the benefits of dividing the airline into two groups. No adequate explanation why they want the QSA lifted, they keep claiming they cannot compete with Virgins ability to raise money because they are limited to 49% Foreign Investment but cannot come forth with anyone that would be willing to spend money on them if this was lifted, they just keep leaving it to speculation and conveniently leave out the part where they aren't even close to that limit yet.
The whole thing is completely disgusting, the Management have created a completely toxic atmosphere that will only be cleared by them being more open and honest with their employees and the general public.
In a way I'm waiting for the QSA to be lifted, just out of sheer morbid curiosity to finally find out what they truly have planned for Qantas as I doubt it will be good for anyone except those at the top currently packing their golden parachutes, perhaps it'll finally be a wake up call to the public in general to stop their politicians just accepting the farces they produce.
Maybe I'm naive, but I'd like to think that most in QF would be more than happy to accept increased "Efficiencies", whether this comes in the form of pay freezes, increases in the utilisation of hours available or having them move to JQ at the same pay rates that they get in QF.
Honestly I feel like the problem is coming from the Top though, they treat their staff like mushrooms, keeping them in the dark and feeding them s**t and just expect them to be good boys and girls and accept whatever is given to them, but human nature is not like that, they have to give the staff reason to trust them, they have to be more open and transparent and it very much seems like they aren't which creates a very resistive employee group. People do not like being kept in the dark, they don't enjoy the discomfort that comes from uncertain futures, things like announcing MONTHS in advancing that a 1000 staff will be cut but not releasing any real figures as to where this will come from is purely antagonistic.
I have no doubt there are major problems on both sides of the arguments, there are undoubtedly Pilots being selfish, personally I can't imagine what the heck I would do with $180,000/year let alone anything more, that would be AWESOME, so perhaps there needs to be a big wake up call to the Pilots to accept perhaps more realistic pay rates BUT at the same time the Management group has to be seen to be doing what needs to be done as well which would mean their own pay rates being adjusted by the same margins. Take the CEO of JAL who cut his own pay in half back in 2009 and I know the first thing someone will say is "Oh, but he didn't take his bonus..." Oh no, so you're telling me he will ONLY make 2 Million dollars this year?! what a travesty, how on earth will he manage to live on that?
At the moment it's all hack and slash, there doesn't appear to be any real revitalisation to Qantas Mainline only to Jetstar and it is a very obvious move to change things to a lower cost model and the staff are sick of being treated like idiots by management who continue to act like this isn't the case at all!! There is obviously no innovation within the Qantas Group at all, all we are seeing is a reduction in network size, a handing off of routes to JQ, getting cosy in bed with Emirates who will quite happily burn QF from the face of the earth if they get a chance and millions being wasted in overseas ventures which are dubious at best.
And to top it all off they make no real attempts to engage their workforce at all, they COULD make some kind of gesture to open a position for some real employees to be within the top level decision making group even if it just a token but they do not, they take no responsibility for past errors at all such as the APA Bid (oops, sorry everyone, we made a mistake but looks like we got away with it!) they offer no explanation for why when JQ was first started Dixon was stated as saying "he didn't think it would be more than 20% of the size of Qantas" and it now being closer to 60%. No explanation as to cross subsidisation of Jetstar (Shut up and stop asking seems to be the response) which others have come forth with evidence for, some of the LAMEs have shown that work done on Jetstar Aircraft was clearly paid for by Qantas Mainline. Then we have no explanation for a bunch of aircraft around the world which are sitting Idle, they cannot adequately explain the benefits of dividing the airline into two groups. No adequate explanation why they want the QSA lifted, they keep claiming they cannot compete with Virgins ability to raise money because they are limited to 49% Foreign Investment but cannot come forth with anyone that would be willing to spend money on them if this was lifted, they just keep leaving it to speculation and conveniently leave out the part where they aren't even close to that limit yet.
The whole thing is completely disgusting, the Management have created a completely toxic atmosphere that will only be cleared by them being more open and honest with their employees and the general public.
In a way I'm waiting for the QSA to be lifted, just out of sheer morbid curiosity to finally find out what they truly have planned for Qantas as I doubt it will be good for anyone except those at the top currently packing their golden parachutes, perhaps it'll finally be a wake up call to the public in general to stop their politicians just accepting the farces they produce.
Settle down guys, it's not personal.
No one in QF believes J* is making money. If recent revelations re EK are true then it's safe to say it was not a money spinner. Mind you, Jet* suffers under the same god awful management QF does, so what hope did it have?
And seriously guys n gals, If Jetstar WAS that great then QF Group would be going great guns would it not? QF/Jetstar management - all of the. - need to be taken out and shot.
And all this is totally irrelevant if EK gets Jet* because QF will be destroyed - or certainly cease to exist in its current state.
It's seriously bad news for QF regardless, and possibly less bad news for Jet*.
We are two fleas arguing over which dog to live on.
No one in QF believes J* is making money. If recent revelations re EK are true then it's safe to say it was not a money spinner. Mind you, Jet* suffers under the same god awful management QF does, so what hope did it have?
And seriously guys n gals, If Jetstar WAS that great then QF Group would be going great guns would it not? QF/Jetstar management - all of the. - need to be taken out and shot.
And all this is totally irrelevant if EK gets Jet* because QF will be destroyed - or certainly cease to exist in its current state.
It's seriously bad news for QF regardless, and possibly less bad news for Jet*.
We are two fleas arguing over which dog to live on.
short flights long nights
Ok, I am going to ask one more time. Where are these "latest revelations" that point to EK buying Jetstar? All I have seen is that they have started code sharing on a few flights. Can some one please point me to the facts that I am obviously missing?
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Exiled in the Ukraine
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SOPs,
Maybe there is a thought out there that the codeshare agreement between JQ/EK is like upsizing a McHappy Meal. Pay an extra $2 and you get the whole lot thrown in.
Maybe there is a thought out there that the codeshare agreement between JQ/EK is like upsizing a McHappy Meal. Pay an extra $2 and you get the whole lot thrown in.
No I didn't say 50 million for the 787, I meant on a like for like basis. Meaning if you substituted all the pilots in Jetstar for Qantas pilots it would cost an extra 50 million
That's business.
That's business.
Speaking of pilot remuneration again for a sec. It seems like there is Rock Bottom after all and American Eagle just reached it.
At least partly thanks to Sully.
Keep unionised - it's better in the long run.
More evidence.
At least partly thanks to Sully.
Keep unionised - it's better in the long run.
More evidence.