QF near miss over Great Australian Bight
Ok Andu, there's your answer, a lowering of recruitment and training standards plus controllers being counseled for minor errors that wouldn't even be noticed anywhere else in the world leads to the perceptions that the pilots have of Australian ATC.
If I was a pilot however my frustration would be at the system not the guy on the other end of the transmission who probably has a supervisor hovering over him/her telling him/her to file on the minor error that the pilot made.
If I was a pilot however my frustration would be at the system not the guy on the other end of the transmission who probably has a supervisor hovering over him/her telling him/her to file on the minor error that the pilot made.
And how could they understand? The closest they have come to a life and death ' code brown' moment is when the made an error of judgement in a foreign currency exchange deal, yet they are the ones admonishing the controllers and setting the tone. If they found themselves first on the scene at a car accident they'd be as much use as tits on a bull.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: rangaville
Posts: 2,280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep, great post 
I can tell you from that one post ASA management has relaxed the rules, seen the error of becoming bigger than the industry we serve. Taken on a customer first mantra.
They've said pretty much verbatim 'listen boys, the customers aren't happy, pull your heads in a little & stop the frivolous reporting, from now on give'm what they want, we'll deal with ICAO, CASA, ATSB & FAA. Don't worry about any future audits, we've got your back'
We had a quick tool box meeting, I can tell you the mood was jubilant
the following shift, per controller, an average of 4 high speed descents issued, a couple of height requirements cancelled, no feeder fixes issued & we let all the IFR traffic sort themselves out.
We are looking forward to more respect from foreign crews now that we are the most relaxed ATC's in the world
thinking of having a barby with all you blokes around, besties from now on
I can tell you from that one post ASA management has relaxed the rules, seen the error of becoming bigger than the industry we serve. Taken on a customer first mantra.They've said pretty much verbatim 'listen boys, the customers aren't happy, pull your heads in a little & stop the frivolous reporting, from now on give'm what they want, we'll deal with ICAO, CASA, ATSB & FAA. Don't worry about any future audits, we've got your back'
We had a quick tool box meeting, I can tell you the mood was jubilant
the following shift, per controller, an average of 4 high speed descents issued, a couple of height requirements cancelled, no feeder fixes issued & we let all the IFR traffic sort themselves out.We are looking forward to more respect from foreign crews now that we are the most relaxed ATC's in the world
thinking of having a barby with all you blokes around, besties from now on
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The World
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reminds me of an Emirates pilot I played golf with, he asked me why he couldn't do his "space shuttle" descent in his 777, why he had to be pushed down. I simply blamed the Airbus he was probably following and he was quite happy with that, he now had someone else to blame instead of ATC!
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Surrounding the localizer
Posts: 2,200
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
Reminds me of an Emirates pilot I played golf with, he asked me why he couldn't do his "space shuttle" descent in his 777, why he had to be pushed down. I simply blamed the Airbus he was probably following and he was quite happy with that, he now had someone else to blame instead of ATC!
I have been known to have quite a few beers (mainly in the interest of good PR) with almost anyone
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: rangaville
Posts: 2,280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
H1, some of my best mates are airline pilots, I've had a lot of beers with airline pilots, they make me feel better as they are the only people who drink more than me
I've had a lot of beers with one Emirates 777 Captain in particular
I've had a lot of beers with one Emirates 777 Captain in particular
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Kingdom of Oz
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now, now EK B777skippers ain't the paragon of great or even average pilots. Can't make it here but weasel into a plum job in the sandbox. Small wonder they always have issues!
TCAS last line of defence!
Thread's gone all quiet!
Well perhaps Ben's latest might fire up the discussion??
Well perhaps Ben's latest might fire up the discussion??
Apropos Adelaide near hit, read this
What happened when the fool proof TCAS collision avoidance system told an EasyJet flight to DESCEND,DESCEND CROSSING while advising a nearby Air France jet to DESCEND, DESCEND NOW near Basel and why it is important in Australia
On 20 September two Qantas A330s flying in opposite directions between Sydney and Perth experienced a ‘near hit’ because of an AirServices Australia error which has lead to a current ATSB inquiry.
The report in Plane Talking linked above gave rise to a furious discussion, including the view that there was really nothing to see, we ought to move on, it was just a controller mistake, and TCAS, the collision warning system carried by all aircraft of a certain size and capability, would have saved the day.
A report in France about a very near miss between two A319s in 2010, one flown by Air France and the other EasyJet, near Basel’s Mulhouse airport, suggests otherwise.
For a number of reasons discussed in the Aviation Herald’s summary of the report which would be, quelle surprise, in French, the RA or resolution advisory issued to the pilots of the easyJet flight changed from DESCEND, DESCEND CROSSING to CLIMB, CLIMB NOW in two seconds.
At the same time easyJet was told DESCEND, DESCEND CROSSING, Air France was told DESCEND, DESCEND NOW.
The abrupt reversal of the TCAS advisory to the easyJet pilots caused them to climb so suddenly that their jet pulled 2.04 G while rolling into a left turn with an angle of bank of 30 degrees, injuring a cabin attendant.
This wasn’t just a breakdown of separation, but a highly unusual TCAS event, and one that did not conform to the gentle almost unnoticeable changes in direction that are considered almost universal in TCAS directed air space conflict resolutions.
Caution: The airport, its surrounding topography, and the equipment used by ATC system, and their training courses, were all, of course, different to those that applied in the Adelaide incident.
However, training and performance errors, and the need to accommodate airliners when they need to divert around severe storm cells, are issues shared in common by ATC in Australia and elsewhere in the world.
One of the reasons why the French safety investigator, the BEA has conducted an inquiry and published its findings is the relevance of the incident to ALL airlines and ATC systems, and while some might think otherwise, Australia is part of the world, and this does have points of relevance to Australian practice as all the parties strive to learn from incidents, relate them to their own circumstances, and enhance air safety as a consequence.
It’s not a case of move on, nothing to see, but one of studying and learning and not saying stupidly dangerous things about TCAS.
What happened when the fool proof TCAS collision avoidance system told an EasyJet flight to DESCEND,DESCEND CROSSING while advising a nearby Air France jet to DESCEND, DESCEND NOW near Basel and why it is important in Australia
On 20 September two Qantas A330s flying in opposite directions between Sydney and Perth experienced a ‘near hit’ because of an AirServices Australia error which has lead to a current ATSB inquiry.
The report in Plane Talking linked above gave rise to a furious discussion, including the view that there was really nothing to see, we ought to move on, it was just a controller mistake, and TCAS, the collision warning system carried by all aircraft of a certain size and capability, would have saved the day.
A report in France about a very near miss between two A319s in 2010, one flown by Air France and the other EasyJet, near Basel’s Mulhouse airport, suggests otherwise.
For a number of reasons discussed in the Aviation Herald’s summary of the report which would be, quelle surprise, in French, the RA or resolution advisory issued to the pilots of the easyJet flight changed from DESCEND, DESCEND CROSSING to CLIMB, CLIMB NOW in two seconds.
At the same time easyJet was told DESCEND, DESCEND CROSSING, Air France was told DESCEND, DESCEND NOW.
The abrupt reversal of the TCAS advisory to the easyJet pilots caused them to climb so suddenly that their jet pulled 2.04 G while rolling into a left turn with an angle of bank of 30 degrees, injuring a cabin attendant.
This wasn’t just a breakdown of separation, but a highly unusual TCAS event, and one that did not conform to the gentle almost unnoticeable changes in direction that are considered almost universal in TCAS directed air space conflict resolutions.
Caution: The airport, its surrounding topography, and the equipment used by ATC system, and their training courses, were all, of course, different to those that applied in the Adelaide incident.
However, training and performance errors, and the need to accommodate airliners when they need to divert around severe storm cells, are issues shared in common by ATC in Australia and elsewhere in the world.
One of the reasons why the French safety investigator, the BEA has conducted an inquiry and published its findings is the relevance of the incident to ALL airlines and ATC systems, and while some might think otherwise, Australia is part of the world, and this does have points of relevance to Australian practice as all the parties strive to learn from incidents, relate them to their own circumstances, and enhance air safety as a consequence.
It’s not a case of move on, nothing to see, but one of studying and learning and not saying stupidly dangerous things about TCAS.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 704
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A report in France about a very near miss between two A319s in 2010, one flown by Air France and the other EasyJet, near Basel’s Mulhouse airport, suggests otherwise.
For a number of reasons discussed in the Aviation Herald’s summary of the report which would be, quelle surprise, in French, the RA or resolution advisory issued to the pilots of the easyJet flight changed from DESCEND, DESCEND CROSSING to CLIMB, CLIMB NOW in two seconds.
At the same time easyJet was told DESCEND, DESCEND CROSSING, Air France was told DESCEND, DESCEND NOW.
The abrupt reversal of the TCAS advisory to the easyJet pilots caused them to climb so suddenly that their jet pulled 2.04 G while rolling into a left turn with an angle of bank of 30 degrees, injuring a cabin attendant.
This wasn’t just a breakdown of separation, but a highly unusual TCAS event, and one that did not conform to the gentle almost unnoticeable changes in direction that are considered almost universal in TCAS directed air space conflict resolutions.
For a number of reasons discussed in the Aviation Herald’s summary of the report which would be, quelle surprise, in French, the RA or resolution advisory issued to the pilots of the easyJet flight changed from DESCEND, DESCEND CROSSING to CLIMB, CLIMB NOW in two seconds.
At the same time easyJet was told DESCEND, DESCEND CROSSING, Air France was told DESCEND, DESCEND NOW.
The abrupt reversal of the TCAS advisory to the easyJet pilots caused them to climb so suddenly that their jet pulled 2.04 G while rolling into a left turn with an angle of bank of 30 degrees, injuring a cabin attendant.
This wasn’t just a breakdown of separation, but a highly unusual TCAS event, and one that did not conform to the gentle almost unnoticeable changes in direction that are considered almost universal in TCAS directed air space conflict resolutions.
This page gives an example like the one cited by Ben which might explain waht happened in the EasyJet/Air France case.
Last edited by VH-Cheer Up; 8th Oct 2013 at 21:58. Reason: To add reference to Euroconrol/TCAS II page
Well perhaps Ben's latest might fire up the discussion??
The abrupt reversal of the TCAS advisory to the easyJet pilots caused them to climb so suddenly that their jet pulled 2.04 G while rolling into a left turn with an angle of bank of 30 degrees, injuring a cabin attendant.
This wasn’t just a breakdown of separation, but a highly unusual TCAS event, and one that did not conform to the gentle almost unnoticeable changes in direction that are considered almost universal in TCAS directed air space conflict resolutions.
This wasn’t just a breakdown of separation, but a highly unusual TCAS event, and one that did not conform to the gentle almost unnoticeable changes in direction that are considered almost universal in TCAS directed air space conflict resolutions.
easyJet flight changed from DESCEND, DESCEND CROSSING to CLIMB, CLIMB NOW in two seconds.
Originally Posted by Avherald
At the same time the crew of DS-1058 received a "Monitor vertical speed" with all vertical speeds to climb marked red and descent speeds between 0 and -1500 fpm marked green. The autopilot is being disconnected, the pitch angle changes from 2.8 degrees to 5.3 degrees immediately after.
Your sledging of the TCAS is a cheap shot and unjustified.
PS: Good to see the AF pilots did everything right for once!
ATsB incident AO-2013-161 investigation update
ATsB have put out an interim report and Murdoch's mob is the first to pick up on it :
AO-2013-161 investigation update
Collision system failed on Qantas plane
Last line of the above article is interesting...
"The ATSB expects to complete its investigation later this month."
...could this be a world record for the ATsB or is it a typo? Let's check shall we...from the interim report:
Must have been a typo or the journo has mixed up his/her shorthand...oh well status quo remains!
ps Also picked up on this point of interest from the interim report:
Hmm...there is a potential hole in the cheese and one that I'd be filing away if I was a bus driver...driver beware!
: AO-2013-161 investigation update
Collision system failed on Qantas plane
Last line of the above article is interesting...
"The ATSB expects to complete its investigation later this month."
...could this be a world record for the ATsB or is it a typo?
Let's check shall we...from the interim report:
It is anticipated that the investigation will be completed no later than September 2014.
ps Also picked up on this point of interest from the interim report:
Although all air transport aircraft are required to have a TCAS, on rare occasions the system can fail or lose functionality during a flight. In such situations a flight crew is usually provided with a fault message, and the flight crew are required to advise ATC. In addition, under specific conditions, aircraft are able to be dispatched for short periods of time without a serviceable TCAS.
Last edited by Sarcs; 10th Oct 2013 at 03:21.