QF near miss over Great Australian Bight
When you boys are capable of inputting correct takeoff weights & flex temps for your departures, (EK) I may listen to your opinion, in the meantime
Ausi ATC has a nasty habit of giving me exit instructions while I'm telling my mate about the status of the auto brake and calling out air speeds for him/her as we decelerate through about 100kph but I know it's not that the individual is incompetent, it's a result of many things within the system the ATC'er is operating within.
I do however understand Andu's message that Ausi ATC has a rather unique 'tone' to the way they do business. That said, so does Ausi KFC.
In Australia, every time someone screws something up, someone else decides you can't do that anymore. The judgement has gone from ATC here. Separation assurance makes Australian ATC more cumbersome than the rest of the world.
In other countries you get paid the big bucks to make the big calls. Put your nuts on line. In Aus someone else decides, that's not safe enough. You didn't have a breakdown, but it's not safe enough.
Having said that. It sounds like the case I question was just a good old f*#k up.
In other countries you get paid the big bucks to make the big calls. Put your nuts on line. In Aus someone else decides, that's not safe enough. You didn't have a breakdown, but it's not safe enough.
Having said that. It sounds like the case I question was just a good old f*#k up.
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Framer, I'm more than aware mate 
did you read my reply to Andu? If I tarred every pilot for one mistake EK made we may as well toss it in as an industry. Andu obviously hates everything Australian after 1989. One of the other EK protagonists had a personal blue with an ATC so takes every opportunity he can to bag Aus ATC.
If ATC around the world worked under the liabilities I do they'd be the same. The rules here are a pain in the arse, I don't make them, sure as **** if I break them I'm out of a job toot-sweet.
did you read my reply to Andu? If I tarred every pilot for one mistake EK made we may as well toss it in as an industry. Andu obviously hates everything Australian after 1989. One of the other EK protagonists had a personal blue with an ATC so takes every opportunity he can to bag Aus ATC.If ATC around the world worked under the liabilities I do they'd be the same. The rules here are a pain in the arse, I don't make them, sure as **** if I break them I'm out of a job toot-sweet.
Last edited by Jack Ranga; 25th Sep 2013 at 00:35.
'JR' old boy I wouldn't want yr job 4 all the tea in China
As pilots we often wonder what the hell is going on down there are these guys (ATC'ers) playing with a Ouija (had to look that spelling up!) board or what?
Last night was a classic. Coming into ML from the Nth I 'assumed' (yes I know 'assume' & aviation don't mix!) from the conversations of other A/C getting clearances that we could expect R34, Nth'ly airflow, nice & easy but nah when I said to ATC upon change of freq we are happy to take the Z arrival to let the automation do the work but nope we got R27 which is fine it's yr cricket match but on descent a few minutes latter whoops sorry rwy change now 34 only change of star! No it's not a gripe as we just had a big grin on our faces & felt like saying 'told ya so'
I've not done a lot of driving OS so am no expert but what I have had to deal with OS sure shows we are a wide open country with only a hand full of planes floating around the sky in airspace that the rest f the world would love to play with:-)
Amazes me also that ML have the one guy handling the whole airport after midnight & it showed, cranky bugger but like I said I wouldn't want your job:-)
Wmk2
As pilots we often wonder what the hell is going on down there are these guys (ATC'ers) playing with a Ouija (had to look that spelling up!) board or what?
Last night was a classic. Coming into ML from the Nth I 'assumed' (yes I know 'assume' & aviation don't mix!) from the conversations of other A/C getting clearances that we could expect R34, Nth'ly airflow, nice & easy but nah when I said to ATC upon change of freq we are happy to take the Z arrival to let the automation do the work but nope we got R27 which is fine it's yr cricket match but on descent a few minutes latter whoops sorry rwy change now 34 only change of star! No it's not a gripe as we just had a big grin on our faces & felt like saying 'told ya so'
I've not done a lot of driving OS so am no expert but what I have had to deal with OS sure shows we are a wide open country with only a hand full of planes floating around the sky in airspace that the rest f the world would love to play with:-)
Amazes me also that ML have the one guy handling the whole airport after midnight & it showed, cranky bugger but like I said I wouldn't want your job:-)
Wmk2
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Jack
the amount of crap I was told I would have to go through to get a nose in the door at both Brissy or Melbourne so that I could spend a few hours there, to get a fundamental grasp of what and why, in the end not worth the effort
the amount of crap I was told I would have to go through to get a nose in the door at both Brissy or Melbourne so that I could spend a few hours there, to get a fundamental grasp of what and why, in the end not worth the effort
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Marauder
I'm assuming you fly commercially...if you contact the Centre directly (speaking on behalf of Brisbane at least) then it would be very rare day even for a short notice visit not to be available. Our guys are always keen to have flightcrew in so that they can see how things work at our end. You can PM me if you like.
Same issue in reverse for us to do famil trips. Bugger all time on the roster to facilitate this. I've even tried when travelling privately - organised successfully last year but no luck this year even with prior arrangement & flight ops approval.
QF + Jetstar don't even participate so half the flightcrew in Oz won't ever have an ATC with them on famil anyway. Maybe a change of govt and change of stance on this issue might help.
Mozz
I'm assuming you fly commercially...if you contact the Centre directly (speaking on behalf of Brisbane at least) then it would be very rare day even for a short notice visit not to be available. Our guys are always keen to have flightcrew in so that they can see how things work at our end. You can PM me if you like.
Same issue in reverse for us to do famil trips. Bugger all time on the roster to facilitate this. I've even tried when travelling privately - organised successfully last year but no luck this year even with prior arrangement & flight ops approval.
QF + Jetstar don't even participate so half the flightcrew in Oz won't ever have an ATC with them on famil anyway. Maybe a change of govt and change of stance on this issue might help.
Mozz
Last edited by Mozzie75; 25th Sep 2013 at 06:12.
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AsA have always been very accommodating when I've organised visits for myself or a group of pilots . The latest visit was only a month ago, and the controllers seemed happy despite someone sitting there looking over their shoulder listening in.
. The latest visit was only a month ago, and the controllers seemed happy despite someone sitting there looking over their shoulder listening in.
In Australia, every time someone screws something up, someone else decides you can't do that anymore. The judgement has gone from ATC here. Separation assurance makes Australian ATC more cumbersome than the rest of the world.
In other countries you get paid the big bucks to make the big calls. Put your nuts on line. In Aus someone else decides, that's not safe enough. You didn't have a breakdown, but it's not safe enough.
Having said that. It sounds like the case I question was just a good old f*#k up.
In other countries you get paid the big bucks to make the big calls. Put your nuts on line. In Aus someone else decides, that's not safe enough. You didn't have a breakdown, but it's not safe enough.
Having said that. It sounds like the case I question was just a good old f*#k up.
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Really, EK pilots lecturing Australian ATC's on inflexibility & unique requirements 
It might interest you to know that the only airline coming through my airspace that refuses to fly the 34V star is EK. A special requirement that is annotated in our books is for the pilots on this thread bagging Aus ATC's for complying with 'so called' special requirements.
I don't give a rats arse if you want the instrument star, don't bag us for having special requirements when you want special treatment.
It might interest you to know that the only airline coming through my airspace that refuses to fly the 34V star is EK. A special requirement that is annotated in our books is for the pilots on this thread bagging Aus ATC's for complying with 'so called' special requirements.
I don't give a rats arse if you want the instrument star, don't bag us for having special requirements when you want special treatment.
In my personal experience, EK are by far the most professional and accommodating pilots I have ever dealt with. The nightly schenanigans into DXB would be an even worse nightmare otherwise. Impulse before being absorbed by the Rat would probably be the only thing close.
Let's no perpetuate the us and them thing JR. We all have a job to do and follow the rules right down to the bone whatever they happen to be.
Let's no perpetuate the us and them thing JR. We all have a job to do and follow the rules right down to the bone whatever they happen to be.
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Yes, let's play as a team, the way it's suppose to be.
Let's understand each other's jobs & the liabilities each of us work under.
Let's refrain from getting on a public forum and describing each other as the worst in the world they encounter. (Like that's gunna happen).
Let's understand all of our organisations have SOP's that are legal documents that are not open to interpretation. Break them, see ya later.
Yeah, sure thing
Let's understand each other's jobs & the liabilities each of us work under.
Let's refrain from getting on a public forum and describing each other as the worst in the world they encounter. (Like that's gunna happen).
Let's understand all of our organisations have SOP's that are legal documents that are not open to interpretation. Break them, see ya later.
Yeah, sure thing
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Often wondered why we have 2 pilots for 1 aircraft and only 1 controller for 2 or more aircraft?
Don't know much about ATC but if transponders can arrange TCAS alerts between aircraft why can't the ATC radar which also interrogates transponders alert the controller?
Don't know much about ATC but if transponders can arrange TCAS alerts between aircraft why can't the ATC radar which also interrogates transponders alert the controller?
Let's understand all of our organisations have SOP's that are legal documents that are not open to interpretation. Break them, see ya later.
Trouble with 2day's flying game on both sides of the fence is that they (the idiot boffin rule makers) don't want people to think outside the square use a little common sense or experience (like the guys/gals did that built this now ugly industry) they want puppets whom say the correct things at the correct time, perform like circus monkeys or just like an automated production line!
Gone are the days of pilots flying heavier than air machines & ATC'ers using their head to sort out a potential mess as we are now so conscious of repercussions from all corners & the so called feel good stupid statement "just culture" that fear is rife & in many forms!
Wmk2
Gone are the days of pilots flying heavier than air machines & ATC'ers using their head to sort out a potential mess as we are now so conscious of repercussions from all corners & the so called feel good stupid statement "just culture" that fear is rife & in many forms!
Wmk2
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Bit harsh there Ranga, we are on the same team aren't we?
FYI, visual approaches are not encouraged here at EK if there are other options that offer a higher implicit level of safety margin. That basically means unless theres no other option guys/gals wont accept visual unless they can back it up with an ILS or RNAV approach.
Besides all that, unless someone is a complete plank, they recognize you guys are under pressure, that being said...my confidence in your organization is at an all time low at the moment thanks to the way ASA mandates how you do business along with all the recent incidents.
FYI, visual approaches are not encouraged here at EK if there are other options that offer a higher implicit level of safety margin. That basically means unless theres no other option guys/gals wont accept visual unless they can back it up with an ILS or RNAV approach.
Besides all that, unless someone is a complete plank, they recognize you guys are under pressure, that being said...my confidence in your organization is at an all time low at the moment thanks to the way ASA mandates how you do business along with all the recent incidents.
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H1, it's a bit rich getting on here criticizing Australia's 'unique' ATC when EK brings it's 'unique' procedures to this country. Whatever approach you want to fly is of no concern to me whatsoever. I bring it up to point out that your company has it's way of doing things, so does ours. Do I agree with the way my 'company' does business? No. Do I get to choose how it does business? No.
If you want me to do business the way the yanks do, or any other countries do, you're wasting your time bitching at me. I don't make the rules here. I'm going to follow them though.
How long would you keep your job if you decided to fly the 34V star??
If you want me to do business the way the yanks do, or any other countries do, you're wasting your time bitching at me. I don't make the rules here. I'm going to follow them though.
How long would you keep your job if you decided to fly the 34V star??
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Sounds like the customers (e.g. EK) don't like the service provided by the monopoly supplier (e.g. ASA).
Methinks the relevant management at EK should be listening to their tech people and go talk to the management people at ASA who can sort it out with their tech people.
And if they don't like the service, they should argue about the bill until the service is improved. Just like any other supplier-customer relationship.
Methinks the relevant management at EK should be listening to their tech people and go talk to the management people at ASA who can sort it out with their tech people.
And if they don't like the service, they should argue about the bill until the service is improved. Just like any other supplier-customer relationship.