QF near miss over Great Australian Bight
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Blimey Ranga, you are a tad sensitive, but in response..
If asking for the RNAV or ILS is considered unique...then so be it, if declining a visual approach because I'm shagged after a back of the clock night flight, then I guess guilty as charged. If all that along with thinking SLOP is a sensible addition to a thining layer of swiss cheese then cuff me and throw away the key.
Oz is unique, the way controllers (or their supervisors) file a snotty violation letter..beggers belief, had it happen to a mate who missed out the word "runway" in the taxi clearance (and yes I've seen the actual letter).
But guess what, I honestly don't have a problem with people being pedantic, I have a problem with systemic and individual failure leading to other bad things happening.
Again, if thats unique, fire up the chair.
As for the visual, well never having done one in Oz, I couldn't tell you, but I already know the answer.
H1, it's a bit rich getting on here criticizing Australia's 'unique' ATC when EK brings it's 'unique' procedures to this country.
Oz is unique, the way controllers (or their supervisors) file a snotty violation letter..beggers belief, had it happen to a mate who missed out the word "runway" in the taxi clearance (and yes I've seen the actual letter).
But guess what, I honestly don't have a problem with people being pedantic, I have a problem with systemic and individual failure leading to other bad things happening.
Again, if thats unique, fire up the chair.
As for the visual, well never having done one in Oz, I couldn't tell you, but I already know the answer.
Last edited by haughtney1; 26th Sep 2013 at 14:46.
Visits to Cairns App and Tower nearly always accommodated at short notice. Number's in ERSA.
At least working Approach, sep assurance is not such a bugbear - if you don't have them pointing at one another, you can't move the traffic.
At least working Approach, sep assurance is not such a bugbear - if you don't have them pointing at one another, you can't move the traffic.
Safety Pee has started a thread in the safety forum.
He/she posted a link to an article that includes this:
The whole article is worth a read but I thought this bit tied in well with what the Ausi ATC ers are saying about their inflexible SOP's.
He/she posted a link to an article that includes this:
According to IATA (2013), close to 3 billion people flew safely on 37.5 million flights in 2012. This means that each day approximately 100,000 flights arrived safely at their destination. Sadly, there were also 75 accidents in 2012, with fifteen of them having fatal consequences (414 fatalities). However, the numbers show that an accident is a rare event – the equivalent of one accident for every 500,000 flights in 2012. For Western-built jets, the accident rate is lower still, with six hull-loss accidents in 2012 - equating to one accident for every 5 million flights.
Pilots, controllers, engineers and others can achieve these results because they are able to adjust their work so that it matches the conditions. (The same, of course, goes for all other industrial domains, although the accident rates may be different.) Yet when we try to manage safety, we focus on the few cases that go wrong rather than the many that go right. But focusing on rare cases of failure attributed to ‘human error’ does not explain why human performance practically always goes right and how it helps to meet ATM goals. Focusing on the lack of safety does not show us which direction to take to improve safety.
Pilots, controllers, engineers and others can achieve these results because they are able to adjust their work so that it matches the conditions. (The same, of course, goes for all other industrial domains, although the accident rates may be different.) Yet when we try to manage safety, we focus on the few cases that go wrong rather than the many that go right. But focusing on rare cases of failure attributed to ‘human error’ does not explain why human performance practically always goes right and how it helps to meet ATM goals. Focusing on the lack of safety does not show us which direction to take to improve safety.
The solution to this is surprisingly simple: instead of only looking at the one case in 10,000 where things go wrong, we should also look at the 9,999 cases where things go right in order to understand how that happens. We should acknowledge that things go right because people are able to adjust their work to the conditions rather than because they work as imagined. Resilience engineering acknowledges that acceptable outcomes and unacceptable outcomes have a common basis, namely everyday performance adjustments
Last edited by framer; 27th Sep 2013 at 06:24.
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VH-Cheer Up, google is your friend, DNM SafetyFrom Safety-I to Safety-II: A White Paper
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The fact is that an Air Traffic Control unit is very much like most other work places including airline cockpits. You have the 'gun' controllers, the average controller who is good at their job but never gets noticed and then you have the less gifted controller who is safe but not much more than that. Everyone makes mistakes, unfortunately for the controller involved in this incident it became national news for a short time.
The majority of Aussie ATCs could get jobs anywhere in the world, I have worked with controllers of many different nationalities and they all fit somewhere in the 3 categories.
When I first started this job I thought that because the US airspace was so busy that all the controllers must be guns, I can tell you this certainly isn't the case. Like most places in the world they have very busy units but also relatively quiet units and the American controllers I have worked with have varied from the very good to the safe but not much else.
Anyone who says this has obviously never flown through Tehran airspace, Muscat airspace, Mumbai airspace, Latvian airspace etc. Yet I have no doubt that these areas still have very good controllers, average controllers and poor controllers...
I would guess that most of the problems pilots have with Aussie ATC come from the rigid procedures and you would probably find the controllers are as frustrated with them as the pilots are but there is nothing the average controller can do to change procedures.
The majority of Aussie ATCs could get jobs anywhere in the world, I have worked with controllers of many different nationalities and they all fit somewhere in the 3 categories.
When I first started this job I thought that because the US airspace was so busy that all the controllers must be guns, I can tell you this certainly isn't the case. Like most places in the world they have very busy units but also relatively quiet units and the American controllers I have worked with have varied from the very good to the safe but not much else.
It's probably worth repeating the hoary old tale of the United pilot departing Sydney on his last flight before retirement who took the time to thank Sydney ATC and telling them that they were "...the second best ATC in the world".
The ATCO thanked him for his kind words and after a brief pause, asked: "Just out of interest, who's the best?", to which the American replied: "The rest of the world."
The ATCO thanked him for his kind words and after a brief pause, asked: "Just out of interest, who's the best?", to which the American replied: "The rest of the world."
I would guess that most of the problems pilots have with Aussie ATC come from the rigid procedures and you would probably find the controllers are as frustrated with them as the pilots are but there is nothing the average controller can do to change procedures.
The other advantages places like NY LA and London have over little old BN SY and ML is, they have been very busy for a very long time. They have extremely well developed processes procedures, and airspace designed for moving aircraft.
In Australia traffic in some regions has exploded. In places like BNE you have only two approach controllers trying to force an extra 40,000 movements per year through airspace that was designed before anyone wanted to go west. There is no other airport in the world moving 220,000 aircraft per year, almost totally onto one runway, with only two approach control positions. It's all happened so fast everyone has been caught off guard, ASA with staff and airspace design, and BNE with infrastructure. But the new runways on the way (slowly), the airspace is being redesigned as we speak, and come November a new departures position opens.
This is only an example of the big picture in Australia, controllers working too much overtime on combined sectors with too many aeroplanes per person. I don't know if this was a factor in the Adelaide incident I guess it'll all come out in the wash.
In Australia traffic in some regions has exploded. In places like BNE you have only two approach controllers trying to force an extra 40,000 movements per year through airspace that was designed before anyone wanted to go west. There is no other airport in the world moving 220,000 aircraft per year, almost totally onto one runway, with only two approach control positions. It's all happened so fast everyone has been caught off guard, ASA with staff and airspace design, and BNE with infrastructure. But the new runways on the way (slowly), the airspace is being redesigned as we speak, and come November a new departures position opens.
This is only an example of the big picture in Australia, controllers working too much overtime on combined sectors with too many aeroplanes per person. I don't know if this was a factor in the Adelaide incident I guess it'll all come out in the wash.
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west atc, I was the miscreant who repeated the hoary old tale about the United pilot and I can assure you
in my case, does not apply. I spent almost 20 years based in Dubai, so I can assure you, I have flown quite a lot in most of the ATC regions you mention, Latvia being the exception, (although I've used Russian airspace more than a few times).
At the risk of causing Jack Ranga to foam at the mouth again, let me repeat what I said in my first post - and what obviously caused such offence to some. Australian ATC is (or should that be 'Australian ATCOs are') unique. They're obviously better trained and far more skilled at their jobs than controllers in many other countries, particularly in some 'Third World' nations. (For instance, I've never had an Australian ATCO clear me for line up with a 737 clearly in sight on one mile finals. I have had a Nigerian ATCO do exactly that to me. I've never had an Australian ATCO clear me for take off - on a very dark night - on a runway that was closed and cluttered with construction equipment. I have had a Thai ATCO do that to me. I could list three or four more similar instances, all of which would have resulted in a major incident if not accident had I blindly obeyed.)
However, (with one exception - an ATCO at Athens, who (I believe) tried to trip me up by putting me in what I think she thought was an impossibly steep position before clearing me for a visual approach - I don't know why), I have never felt that any of the non-Australian controllers were setting out to catch me out. They were sometimes incompetent, and sometimes they were battling with radios - and/or ATC systems - that were third rate to put it kindly. India, particularly (but not only) its HF comms, was in a class of its own in this regard, although CPDLC has transformed the situation there in recent years.
I have had a number of non-Australian colleagues comment to me that when they operate in Australia, they feel as if the ATCOs are purposely trying to catch them out at every turn, as if it's a point scoring exercise where the ATCO feels he's had a win if he can put in a report admonishing the pilot over some (sometimes trifling) matter. As I said in my first post, I'm telling you how you are perceived by quite a few non-Australian pilots. So please, don't shoot the messenger - just take it as read. Rightly or wrongly, that's how you are perceived.
I must admit, I've had a few instances myself where I've come away asking myself what in the world the ATCO was trying to prove. As I said in my first post, it's as if some among you (quite a few, in fact) feel as if YOU are the end users rather than the service providers and that the aeroplanes are there only to give you an excuse to apply the 'rools' you all so strictly adhere to. (I accept the comments some have made that you're forced to do so by the System - but if that's the case, I can't help but comment that I've never experienced a similar attitude among ATCOs or ATC systems anywhere else in the world.)
I'd better log off and strap my helmet on and start digging my foxhole quite a bit deeper than it currently is, for I fear the 'incoming' is going to be quite thick and heavy.
Anyone who says this has obviously never flown through Tehran airspace, Muscat airspace, Mumbai airspace, Latvian airspace etc.
At the risk of causing Jack Ranga to foam at the mouth again, let me repeat what I said in my first post - and what obviously caused such offence to some. Australian ATC is (or should that be 'Australian ATCOs are') unique. They're obviously better trained and far more skilled at their jobs than controllers in many other countries, particularly in some 'Third World' nations. (For instance, I've never had an Australian ATCO clear me for line up with a 737 clearly in sight on one mile finals. I have had a Nigerian ATCO do exactly that to me. I've never had an Australian ATCO clear me for take off - on a very dark night - on a runway that was closed and cluttered with construction equipment. I have had a Thai ATCO do that to me. I could list three or four more similar instances, all of which would have resulted in a major incident if not accident had I blindly obeyed.)
However, (with one exception - an ATCO at Athens, who (I believe) tried to trip me up by putting me in what I think she thought was an impossibly steep position before clearing me for a visual approach - I don't know why), I have never felt that any of the non-Australian controllers were setting out to catch me out. They were sometimes incompetent, and sometimes they were battling with radios - and/or ATC systems - that were third rate to put it kindly. India, particularly (but not only) its HF comms, was in a class of its own in this regard, although CPDLC has transformed the situation there in recent years.
I have had a number of non-Australian colleagues comment to me that when they operate in Australia, they feel as if the ATCOs are purposely trying to catch them out at every turn, as if it's a point scoring exercise where the ATCO feels he's had a win if he can put in a report admonishing the pilot over some (sometimes trifling) matter. As I said in my first post, I'm telling you how you are perceived by quite a few non-Australian pilots. So please, don't shoot the messenger - just take it as read. Rightly or wrongly, that's how you are perceived.
I must admit, I've had a few instances myself where I've come away asking myself what in the world the ATCO was trying to prove. As I said in my first post, it's as if some among you (quite a few, in fact) feel as if YOU are the end users rather than the service providers and that the aeroplanes are there only to give you an excuse to apply the 'rools' you all so strictly adhere to. (I accept the comments some have made that you're forced to do so by the System - but if that's the case, I can't help but comment that I've never experienced a similar attitude among ATCOs or ATC systems anywhere else in the world.)
I'd better log off and strap my helmet on and start digging my foxhole quite a bit deeper than it currently is, for I fear the 'incoming' is going to be quite thick and heavy.
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I have had a number of non-Australian colleagues comment to me that when they operate in Australia, they feel as if the ATCOs are purposely trying to catch them out at every turn, as if it's a point scoring exercise where the ATCO feels he's had a win if he can put in a report admonishing the pilot over some (sometimes trifling) matter.
I have worked with controllers from other parts of the world that enjoy picking pilots up on every little mistake they make and making them 'feel like they have had a win', I don't think this trait is unique to the Aussies.
As I said in my first post, I'm telling you how you are perceived by quite a few non-Australian pilots. So please, don't shoot the messenger - just take it as read. Rightly or wrongly, that's how you are perceived.
I still think that the way Aussie ATC is perceived is down to the culture more than the individual ATCs, if you took most Aussie ATCs out of that culture I think they would have very different attitudes. It could also be that they are just being cranky bastards because they haven't had enough time off.
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Don't bet on it, pavement. Believe you me, ATC recruitment, training is a disgrace. You can can read and believe all the glossy material you like but ATC standards have deteriorated over the years. What cost safety?
It's true. If you muck something up in Australian airspace be prepared to have a report filed. EVERYthing is filed on here. Believe me it's the same internally (not just picking on the pilots). I got a record of counselling for missing an incorrect read back of a squawk code recently. Other places I've worked, it wouldn't be considered a safety issue, ask the pilot to recycle the correct code and move on.
Just culture wins!
Just culture wins!
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It's true. If you muck something up in Australian airspace be prepared to have a report filed. EVERYthing is filed on here. Believe me it's the same internally (not just picking on the pilots). I got a record of counselling for missing an incorrect read back of a squawk code recently. Other places I've worked, it wouldn't be considered a safety issue, ask the pilot to recycle the correct code and move on.
Just culture wins!
Just culture wins!
Don't bet on it, pavement. Believe you me, ATC recruitment, training is a disgrace. You can can read and believe all the glossy material you like but ATC standards have deteriorated over the years. What cost safety?
If I was a pilot however my frustration would be at the system not the guy on the other end of the transmission who probably has a supervisor hovering over him/her telling him/her to file on the minor error that the pilot made.
Flown all over the world. Give me an Aussie controller any day. But the system in Aus seems flawed. If you could combine the controllers with a more flexible system - I think you'd have a winner.
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'Straya...strange place. I have some relatives who moved there to work in some cardiac units in the hospital. Some elderly patients died on the operating theatre. No negligence on the surgeons' part but only that the deaths looked a bit disconcerting due to some unfortunate circumstances. Guess what...all the guys on the operating team were given lots of time off for " TRAUMA COUNSELLING "!
WTF! I nearly had a code brown on final approach with a mico burst which necessitate rocket boosters to get out of there pronto, filed in a report about that windshear/ microburst recovery, not an ordinary go around, and what do I get...an invitation for tea and bikkies ( on my own off days ! ) to review the FOQA data. The guys were happy though, but no days off for " ALMOST CODE BROWN " counselling. Just a grudging " good job guys " because they know they couldn't do better! The pilot profession has gone to the dogs because of " f**king management pilots "! Likewise for ATCers, their managers suck too!
WTF! I nearly had a code brown on final approach with a mico burst which necessitate rocket boosters to get out of there pronto, filed in a report about that windshear/ microburst recovery, not an ordinary go around, and what do I get...an invitation for tea and bikkies ( on my own off days ! ) to review the FOQA data. The guys were happy though, but no days off for " ALMOST CODE BROWN " counselling. Just a grudging " good job guys " because they know they couldn't do better! The pilot profession has gone to the dogs because of " f**king management pilots "! Likewise for ATCers, their managers suck too!
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Andu, my worldly flying experience has been limited to Australia with a few sojourns to Indonesia. I've never though thought an ATC was trying to catch me out, trip me up, or looking for an excuse to dobb me in. 