Virgin Aircraft 'Emergency' Landing
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FYSTI agree,"there for the grace of god go I" springs to mind.
If only funding could be found for Cat 111 at SYD and PER at least.
Perhaps GT could enlighten the main stream media of the cost/benefit of this move, I've given up on believing in what apparently passes for a Federal Government in this country doing anything about this issue until (God forbid) there is a smoking hole in the ground.
If only funding could be found for Cat 111 at SYD and PER at least.
Perhaps GT could enlighten the main stream media of the cost/benefit of this move, I've given up on believing in what apparently passes for a Federal Government in this country doing anything about this issue until (God forbid) there is a smoking hole in the ground.
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So what you are saying is that the virgin crew would have probably busted the minima just like qantas did if they had of flown the approach first.
This is in spite of the virgin aircraft doing two quite deliberate approaches, with a fuel state deteriorating. It was not until a fuel emergency was declared that virgin went below the minma. Pure copybook stuff!
2100 kg of fuel is NOT a emergency, therefore no justification to break any rules.
I say again embarrassing for some, pure roses for someone else.
This is in spite of the virgin aircraft doing two quite deliberate approaches, with a fuel state deteriorating. It was not until a fuel emergency was declared that virgin went below the minma. Pure copybook stuff!
2100 kg of fuel is NOT a emergency, therefore no justification to break any rules.
I say again embarrassing for some, pure roses for someone else.
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You guys have got to be kidding right?
QF advised the VA crew of their intention to do an approach and stated that they had fuel issues. They then ask VA what their intentions were.
VA after attempting a DME arrival for visual approach decide to allow QF a go.
QF don't know the state of VA's fuel. VA don't communicate anything about their fuel.
QF are also committed to Mildura. So they manage their situation.
VA manage theirs.
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?
Get over it!
QF advised the VA crew of their intention to do an approach and stated that they had fuel issues. They then ask VA what their intentions were.
VA after attempting a DME arrival for visual approach decide to allow QF a go.
QF don't know the state of VA's fuel. VA don't communicate anything about their fuel.
QF are also committed to Mildura. So they manage their situation.
VA manage theirs.
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?
Get over it!
The more I hear and read about this incident, the higher my levels of admiration for the VA crew climbs.
Very well done indeed.
I must agree, standing aside to allow QF first crack due to their reported low fuel state was very sporting indeed.
More so considering they landed with 30 mins above statutory reserves!
Very well done indeed.
I must agree, standing aside to allow QF first crack due to their reported low fuel state was very sporting indeed.
More so considering they landed with 30 mins above statutory reserves!
If Virgin had not moved out of the way for Qantas, and gone straight in and landed off the first approach, I dare say they would probably have had 2000kgs remaining.
I highly doubt ANY QF pilot would have made the VA aircraft wait if they knew exactly how tight they were with fuel (assuming it was less than QF).
The rapidly deteriorating conditions they observed and minimal fuel meant the QF guys thought busting minima first go to be their personal choice as the safest course of action. No one can be critical of that surely.
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With all due respect Blokes, how about playing the Ball and not the Man in this case at least, there is little to be gained from this IMO.
Forensic analysis is the the job of those with access to the Facts, taking cheep shots at other "Professional Aviators" is a little low rent.
Forensic analysis is the the job of those with access to the Facts, taking cheep shots at other "Professional Aviators" is a little low rent.
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Weather situations are time dependant, ie time heals all. I guarantee the fog in MIA lifted sometime later that day, if fact the longer you wait the closer you are to the fog from lifting. To land with fixed reserve plus 30 minutes after busting the minima smacks of being able to tell the future. 30 minutes of holding may well have seen the fog dissipate, qantas could not have possibly have known this when they busted the minima.
I say again with absolute certainty.... Embarrassing
I say again with absolute certainty.... Embarrassing
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Gazumped
You keep banging on about QF busting the minima without an emergency.
I don't know about you buddy but if I didn't have fuel to divert and my only airport was turning to **** I'd be pretty convinced that I had an emergency.
You keep banging on about QF busting the minima without an emergency.
I don't know about you buddy but if I didn't have fuel to divert and my only airport was turning to **** I'd be pretty convinced that I had an emergency.
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RATpin
I am not playing the man, facts are facts! However unpalatable.
The virgin crew did an exemplary job, the qantas guys...... Well I guess the regulator may have some questions he wants answered.
The virgin crew did an exemplary job, the qantas guys...... Well I guess the regulator may have some questions he wants answered.
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Lone pine
There is no reason to panic, just because you are down to your last hour of fuel, the regs are quite specific when you are 1 second below fixed reserve the you do what you have to do, until then it's not too difficult, obey the rules, follow sop's you get the gist.
Bottums Up
From my single reading of the entire preliminary report, the impression I got was that the Virgin crew made an assumption
It's easy in hindsight to suggest that perhaps a comparison of fuel states might have been wise. It's also easy to see in a dynamic and increasingly stressful situation, how assumptions can be made.
I think to infer that QF pushed in is simple QF bashing and unbefitting professional pilots. I also suspect the QF crew were acutely aware there were no other options other than Mildura, hence their "busting minimums first time".
The crew of YIR advised that they were commencing an approach via MIAEC. The crew of VYK replied that they were also commencing an approach and that fuel was an issue. The crew of YIR reviewed their fuel status and, assessing the intent of the radio transmission from the crew of VYK as meaning that they had less fuel than YIR, elected to fly to the north of MIAEC and allow the crew of VYK to conduct their approach first
I think to infer that QF pushed in is simple QF bashing and unbefitting professional pilots. I also suspect the QF crew were acutely aware there were no other options other than Mildura, hence their "busting minimums first time".
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Yes that's right Gazumped obey the rules and land with 535 kg in the tanks.
Your kidding right? Seems to me that QF crew did what they had to do to avoid just that.
Your kidding right? Seems to me that QF crew did what they had to do to avoid just that.
Last edited by Lone pine; 18th Jul 2013 at 12:04.
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Gazumped
**** it wouldn't really matter what they had on board if it isn't sufficient to get them somewhere else. What do you do, hld or make approaches down to the minima until you're into a fuel emergency situation with the viz deteriorating or make a decision to go below the min while you may still get visual?
By the sounds of it the fog was in the early stages of forming, waiting longer may have put them further in the ****. I can't see an argument against the QF crews decision on that.
IMO, unless the ETAs were very close best for who could commence the approach first so as not to waste time while the viz is going downhill.
By the sounds of it the fog was in the early stages of forming, waiting longer may have put them further in the ****. I can't see an argument against the QF crews decision on that.
IMO, unless the ETAs were very close best for who could commence the approach first so as not to waste time while the viz is going downhill.
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There were clear failings in the system before either of those aircraft got within a bulls roar of Adelaide let alone Mildura. That's the main story. Hopefully the full report is not farked up by incompetent, non pilot, public servants.
If I'm reading into the CRM that was intimated in the report going on in the Virgin cockpit it was remarkable. The FO observes on the first attempt that they were over the runway.
Some airlines are incapable of flying visual approaches, look what both these crews achieved
If I'm reading into the CRM that was intimated in the report going on in the Virgin cockpit it was remarkable. The FO observes on the first attempt that they were over the runway.
Some airlines are incapable of flying visual approaches, look what both these crews achieved
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Lone pine
Let put in single syllables, until you have an emergency, you are not empowered to break the rules.
Let me put it this way, you arrive at Perth with 2800 kg in your tanks, Kalgoolie is 2000 kg away, so therefore you are committed to a landing at Perth, so you can now bust the minima at Perth (assuming last minute bad wx) because you are committed to a landing there. Do you see the logic? If you injure a passenger by busting the minima, unless you can justify your decision, you would be liable. It ain't rocket science!
Let me put it this way, you arrive at Perth with 2800 kg in your tanks, Kalgoolie is 2000 kg away, so therefore you are committed to a landing at Perth, so you can now bust the minima at Perth (assuming last minute bad wx) because you are committed to a landing there. Do you see the logic? If you injure a passenger by busting the minima, unless you can justify your decision, you would be liable. It ain't rocket science!
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Jack ranga
You are right there about failings in the system, BOM!
Many years ago I did a missed approach at the minima in a central Queensland airport, the forecast was cavok! Landed with something less than fixed after doing a home made approach, and shorty after landing a lightening strike occurred off the end of the strip ....CAVOK!
The reply to my incident report from BOM several months later was full of public service speak as to why they had done nothing wrong! The was a paid met observer that did an observation 40 minutes before my arrival, and forecast was not amended.
Many years ago I did a missed approach at the minima in a central Queensland airport, the forecast was cavok! Landed with something less than fixed after doing a home made approach, and shorty after landing a lightening strike occurred off the end of the strip ....CAVOK!
The reply to my incident report from BOM several months later was full of public service speak as to why they had done nothing wrong! The was a paid met observer that did an observation 40 minutes before my arrival, and forecast was not amended.
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Gazumped
You seem to think that one has to have or declare a fuel emergency before doing what QF did.
That's simple minded logic.
The rules state that only in an emergency can one descend below MDA. An emergency could be any number of things.
You can argue that QF had an emergency as they did not have diversion fuel and the weather was getting worse.
So they made a call in the interest of safety.
Pure and simple. Good call in my opinion.
As I said you can apply your logic and land with 535kg or apply the QF pilots logic and land with 2 tonne.
You seem to think that one has to have or declare a fuel emergency before doing what QF did.
That's simple minded logic.
The rules state that only in an emergency can one descend below MDA. An emergency could be any number of things.
You can argue that QF had an emergency as they did not have diversion fuel and the weather was getting worse.
So they made a call in the interest of safety.
Pure and simple. Good call in my opinion.
As I said you can apply your logic and land with 535kg or apply the QF pilots logic and land with 2 tonne.
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Captain fathom
Are you serious?
If 2100 kg is justification for busting minima, what about 2200?, how about 2300kg, what about 3000kg but I'm just nervous.
Laws are laws, if you break them you must have justification, unequivocal justification.
You heard the one about the Irish cop who shot Murphy 10 minutes before the curfew started, when questioned he said, well I shot him cause I knows where he lives and he could not have got home before curfew, his house is at least 20 minutes away!
You get the idea!
If 2100 kg is justification for busting minima, what about 2200?, how about 2300kg, what about 3000kg but I'm just nervous.
Laws are laws, if you break them you must have justification, unequivocal justification.
You heard the one about the Irish cop who shot Murphy 10 minutes before the curfew started, when questioned he said, well I shot him cause I knows where he lives and he could not have got home before curfew, his house is at least 20 minutes away!
You get the idea!