R/T congestion
chaps - absolutely no point in extra frequencies for this and that unless there is also someone extra on the other end of it to talk to!.
An airline controlled ramp freq is a pretty terrible idea with airline cost cutting etc. An atc ramp freq is required like the rest of the world. A little while ago we got cleared for a pushback off gate 3 when another plane was taxiing from gate one behind us but not past (qf alley). We saw him coming in the reflection of the glass and the engineer stopped the pushback but it is no surprise the mistake happened and will again with the ridiculous workload the ground controller has. I bet if we had run into the other aircraft on our pushback the system would change and a ramp or some such would be provided. Why do we wait until a accident in Australia to see a meaningful safety change? And yes I waited a couple of seconds before calling for pushback
airservices-seriously??
OPTION 1:
Get a tug attached, release the brakes. You're now being paid. Get your clearance when you can. If the schedule gets blown out because it takes 10-15 minutes to get a word in that's not your fault/ problem. Multiple delays and crew being paid more because of longer block times will get it fixed.
OPTION 2:
Request your clearance when you can. Any delays - send the ACARS with the appropriate delay code. As above.
I'd choose option 1 myself.
Get a tug attached, release the brakes. You're now being paid. Get your clearance when you can. If the schedule gets blown out because it takes 10-15 minutes to get a word in that's not your fault/ problem. Multiple delays and crew being paid more because of longer block times will get it fixed.
OPTION 2:
Request your clearance when you can. Any delays - send the ACARS with the appropriate delay code. As above.
I'd choose option 1 myself.
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Your answer to this mess came at Albanesse's rail press conference, 40 years to build 1700km's of track. 10 years to gain the necessary approvals. There are yet more enquiries being held into a 2nd Sydney airport, 25 years after the need was identified.
Australia, a 3rd world bureaucratic embarrassment masquerading as experts in everything we do.
Australia, a 3rd world bureaucratic embarrassment masquerading as experts in everything we do.
Nunc est bibendum
The issue here with congestion is often multiple aircraft jumping on to request push at the same time as ATC is giving taxi instructions, aircraft are clearing runways, etc. we can't possibly see the big picture here and know when to jump in. An ATIS instruction to not over transmit is useless- none of us ever intends to over transmit.
The solution is not airline ramps frequencies. Otherwise you'll end up with a bottleneck on the taxiways because the ramp has pushed three guys back not knowing the SMC controller can't move them out due inbound traffic.
The solution is what Heathrow does....a push back frequency where all you do is request push. They acknowledge it and tell you to monitor ground. The ATCO calls you when he can fit it in and it works with the traffic load. That way the SMC dude can balance the load. He doesn't have to worry about Sonoma e requesting push at the same time as someone else is exiting the runway. In fact, he can wait the three seconds for the vacating aircraft to call and not have the aircraft needing to push back block that call because they're waiting for SMC to call them with a push approval.
It'll work because all the COORD needs to do is to slide the strip across to SMC in order that they call (or by apron) and then SMC is initiating most of the chatter. The only two pilot initiated calls you'd ever hear on SMC would be an aircraft vacating a RWY and an aircraft requesting taxi.
The solution is not airline ramps frequencies. Otherwise you'll end up with a bottleneck on the taxiways because the ramp has pushed three guys back not knowing the SMC controller can't move them out due inbound traffic.
The solution is what Heathrow does....a push back frequency where all you do is request push. They acknowledge it and tell you to monitor ground. The ATCO calls you when he can fit it in and it works with the traffic load. That way the SMC dude can balance the load. He doesn't have to worry about Sonoma e requesting push at the same time as someone else is exiting the runway. In fact, he can wait the three seconds for the vacating aircraft to call and not have the aircraft needing to push back block that call because they're waiting for SMC to call them with a push approval.
It'll work because all the COORD needs to do is to slide the strip across to SMC in order that they call (or by apron) and then SMC is initiating most of the chatter. The only two pilot initiated calls you'd ever hear on SMC would be an aircraft vacating a RWY and an aircraft requesting taxi.
Keg, good idea, but a bit of educating will be necessary. The times I have asked an aircraft here to monitor XXX, the next call is "XXX, ABC with you"
Last edited by RAC/OPS; 12th Apr 2013 at 22:58.
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Clarky..good idea but the pundits will just post lack of controllers again...that said, the company controlled frequencies can and do work reasonably well, even in complex ground environments, such as JFK.
I recall in the heady days of UK charter flying, slots were key and we didn't even bother calling ground before our slot window opened..maybe that's the key..everyone takes a slot..more load on ATC though...?
I recall in the heady days of UK charter flying, slots were key and we didn't even bother calling ground before our slot window opened..maybe that's the key..everyone takes a slot..more load on ATC though...?
I think push back should be requested from clearance delivery. Then told to monitor ground. The strip is slid to the SMC controller and he issues the push back when he can. I realise clearance delivery can be congested too, but at least his head isn't spinning.
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Taking a worldwide view of this, it would also really help if ICAO recommended/ enforced a standard set of R/T procedures.
LHR has been mentioned and here is the Jepp version of the airways clearance request;
CallHEATHROW Delivery when fully ready to start and push back within 5 mins:
· Callsign
· Aircraft Type
· Stand number
· QNH
· ATIS
“HEATHROW Delivery, Callsign, Aircraft Type, Stand ___, QNH ___, Received ___, Request Clearance”
I don't see the need for stating QNH and aircraft type but the rest seems a quite logical starting point for sliding strips to the next controller.
Stones are often thrown at the R/T procedures of foreign airlines operating into Oz, but they are usually more 'standard' than you think, given the multiple airspaces they inhabit.
I have a not so fond memory of witnessing a militaristic belligerent dick (micro size) waving bi-polar bully hypocritical back stabbing very sub-standard narcissistic Check Captain ripping into a junior FO about some minor SOP slip and then hearing said Check Captain blurt out the most non standard radio calls.
Read the Jepp and then walk the talk ladies and gentlemen. It reflects your personal standards.
LHR has been mentioned and here is the Jepp version of the airways clearance request;
CallHEATHROW Delivery when fully ready to start and push back within 5 mins:
· Callsign
· Aircraft Type
· Stand number
· QNH
· ATIS
“HEATHROW Delivery, Callsign, Aircraft Type, Stand ___, QNH ___, Received ___, Request Clearance”
I don't see the need for stating QNH and aircraft type but the rest seems a quite logical starting point for sliding strips to the next controller.
Stones are often thrown at the R/T procedures of foreign airlines operating into Oz, but they are usually more 'standard' than you think, given the multiple airspaces they inhabit.
I have a not so fond memory of witnessing a militaristic belligerent dick (micro size) waving bi-polar bully hypocritical back stabbing very sub-standard narcissistic Check Captain ripping into a junior FO about some minor SOP slip and then hearing said Check Captain blurt out the most non standard radio calls.
Read the Jepp and then walk the talk ladies and gentlemen. It reflects your personal standards.
Nunc est bibendum
once again it comes back, like most things airservices are trying to do, is having enough qualified bodies ( atc's , not 'others' ) to do the tasks
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The COORD is busy doing things the COORD has always done. And most of the time is also the Supervisor. Every tower has a COORD position but Sydney is the only one now to speak on air due to Metron. SMC is way to busy to check compliance so the COORD does it.
The way things stand, the COORD position cannot act as ramp as they are too busy with their regular duties.
Staff it from 0600 to 2300 and they could.
The way things stand, the COORD position cannot act as ramp as they are too busy with their regular duties.
Staff it from 0600 to 2300 and they could.
Keg, your suggestion has been raised to management a number of times and reviewed by a couple of 'working groups' and gone no where.
Whilst I agree it's not a pilot/airline issue maybe the pressure that can be applied may lead to an outcome that will benefit everyone.
In the meantime, please have a listen before calling (which I know most do) work out if a read back is pending and then go for it - as crazy as the job is, it's part of what makes working 121.7 so enjoyable (most of the time!).
Whilst I agree it's not a pilot/airline issue maybe the pressure that can be applied may lead to an outcome that will benefit everyone.
In the meantime, please have a listen before calling (which I know most do) work out if a read back is pending and then go for it - as crazy as the job is, it's part of what makes working 121.7 so enjoyable (most of the time!).
Some good suggestions here sadly though I doubt any will come to fruition anytime soon:-(
"keepem" that's half the problem as I have mentioned elsewhere here waiting a moment or listening in b4 transmitting only means you get left behind as several A/C get in b4 you in rapid succession. Being a Christian rule abider means yr get stood on !:-)
As someone has mentioned, the big picture, we simply don't have that & we are pretty much on our own out there in 121.7 land:-)
The answer?.....well I don't believe there is one as we have dug ourselves a whole in which we cannot get out of given the current restraints in Syd.
At times 121.7 is unbelievable so me takes me hat off to you
We all do our best & we'll keep doing it I guess:-)
Wmk2
"keepem" that's half the problem as I have mentioned elsewhere here waiting a moment or listening in b4 transmitting only means you get left behind as several A/C get in b4 you in rapid succession. Being a Christian rule abider means yr get stood on !:-)
As someone has mentioned, the big picture, we simply don't have that & we are pretty much on our own out there in 121.7 land:-)
The answer?.....well I don't believe there is one as we have dug ourselves a whole in which we cannot get out of given the current restraints in Syd.
At times 121.7 is unbelievable so me takes me hat off to you
We all do our best & we'll keep doing it I guess:-)
Wmk2
Cheers Wally, and I understand where you are coming from (especially if you operate on D2 or 3) and a missed or late call can result in a slide from number 1 for push/taxi to number 3/4/5.
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R/T congestion
Someone design an app that let's you send GND a message that you are ready for pushback!
Hit the send button and wait for ground to call you.
Like a reverse PDC.
Or have an FMS button to press like the digital clearance request option you can use in HKG.
Can't be that hard....
Hit the send button and wait for ground to call you.
Like a reverse PDC.
Or have an FMS button to press like the digital clearance request option you can use in HKG.
Can't be that hard....
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Finally a topic of substance, which goes right to the core of simple "Airmanship"... which is rarely taught nowdays.
A good opening Wally2 and indeed the first couple of replies.
A separate ACD is a must, I feel.
"PDC" clears alot of that up, if they say what little is required, concisely & at the right time but given the many foreign carriers into Australia who don't have English as their major, it is an issue sometimes.
For those people (or airline beginners- we all were once), can I suggest: BEFORE YOU SPEAK- write down what you SHOULD say, practice it, confirm with your other crew, THEN listen on frequency & wait for a space.
Personally, I have "Clearance" up on the comm during preflight well before required, to actively listen to flow or RWY changes before we start. You will hear a trend if its busy, with 1, 2, 3 or 4+ on standby.
IF it is busy, just say your call sign, standing-by... ie "GrogMonkey1 standing-by 5" in this instance, so the controller can activate your "slide" and knows you are ready, instead of jamming it all up with your full RT. It's common sense. He will prioritise based on other movements & planned slots and will get back to you accordingly. When they do, THEN, give the required full Clearance Request (or just respond to what he asks). It is their frequency to control so listen out and await anticipated advice.
(Clear, concise & sharp RT is whats needed in busy times, not excessive readbacks of stuff not required or waffle... save that for quiet times.)
Asia in the air is much worse too now, especially Indonesia/Singapore/Philippines/India/Malay with crew told an ATC frequency transfer, which they select then transmit on immediately, without listening if they are interrupting another interaction... hence the following RT takes up twice the time it should have, to resolve the interrupted transmission and others interrupting.
"Common sense is no longer common"
For those others in positions able to spread/teach this, please do so actively.
A good opening Wally2 and indeed the first couple of replies.
A separate ACD is a must, I feel.
"PDC" clears alot of that up, if they say what little is required, concisely & at the right time but given the many foreign carriers into Australia who don't have English as their major, it is an issue sometimes.
For those people (or airline beginners- we all were once), can I suggest: BEFORE YOU SPEAK- write down what you SHOULD say, practice it, confirm with your other crew, THEN listen on frequency & wait for a space.
Personally, I have "Clearance" up on the comm during preflight well before required, to actively listen to flow or RWY changes before we start. You will hear a trend if its busy, with 1, 2, 3 or 4+ on standby.
IF it is busy, just say your call sign, standing-by... ie "GrogMonkey1 standing-by 5" in this instance, so the controller can activate your "slide" and knows you are ready, instead of jamming it all up with your full RT. It's common sense. He will prioritise based on other movements & planned slots and will get back to you accordingly. When they do, THEN, give the required full Clearance Request (or just respond to what he asks). It is their frequency to control so listen out and await anticipated advice.
(Clear, concise & sharp RT is whats needed in busy times, not excessive readbacks of stuff not required or waffle... save that for quiet times.)
Asia in the air is much worse too now, especially Indonesia/Singapore/Philippines/India/Malay with crew told an ATC frequency transfer, which they select then transmit on immediately, without listening if they are interrupting another interaction... hence the following RT takes up twice the time it should have, to resolve the interrupted transmission and others interrupting.
"Common sense is no longer common"
For those others in positions able to spread/teach this, please do so actively.
Last edited by Chocks Away; 13th Apr 2013 at 19:03.