Gold Coast ops today
My airline has a Approach Ban and most other companies will need to have one as CASA are currently working on the final wording of the reg before issuing it.
Should work really well in the bush.
Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 28th Jan 2013 at 11:40.
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Approach bans have been in place in most countries for at least forty-two years* Essentially they are designed to prohibit ILS approaches inside the OM when RVR (not reported from some car) is below landing minima.
In the meantime CAT III approach/ autoland capability has become more common, almost rendering state approach bans moot.
Australia has only recently installed transmisometers adjacent to ILS runways at a few airports, hence the sudden fascination with approach bans. I don't do many non-ILS approaches anymore, but I haven't seen an approach ban philosophy applied to anything but an ILS.
I cannot recall clearly, but I think the whole idea started with the advent of the CAT II approach. The bans were in place to prevent non-approved operators from descending to the then new heroic limits without the equipment and training required.
*well, they were in the books when I did my first IR in '71. My instructor told me that if they had approach bans in place for the ILS just request the NDB approach. Looking back now it dawns on me that he may have been a knob.
In the meantime CAT III approach/ autoland capability has become more common, almost rendering state approach bans moot.
Australia has only recently installed transmisometers adjacent to ILS runways at a few airports, hence the sudden fascination with approach bans. I don't do many non-ILS approaches anymore, but I haven't seen an approach ban philosophy applied to anything but an ILS.
I cannot recall clearly, but I think the whole idea started with the advent of the CAT II approach. The bans were in place to prevent non-approved operators from descending to the then new heroic limits without the equipment and training required.
*well, they were in the books when I did my first IR in '71. My instructor told me that if they had approach bans in place for the ILS just request the NDB approach. Looking back now it dawns on me that he may have been a knob.
Last edited by Twin Beech; 28th Jan 2013 at 16:34.
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It all comes under low vis ops. The relevant CAAP is LVO-1(0). It only starts applying when you get to Cat II ILS ops so thats why we don't see it reflected in many ops manuals.
For landings, the following approach ban rules apply:
• when making an approach, the PIC of the aircraft must not continue beyond 1 000 ft above aerodrome elevation if a controlling zone RVR is reported by ATC as continually less than the
specified minimum for the approach; and
• if, after passing 1 000 ft above aerodrome elevation, a controlling zone RVR is reported by ATC as falling below the specified minimum, the approach may be continued to the minima.
For landings, the following approach ban rules apply:
• when making an approach, the PIC of the aircraft must not continue beyond 1 000 ft above aerodrome elevation if a controlling zone RVR is reported by ATC as continually less than the
specified minimum for the approach; and
• if, after passing 1 000 ft above aerodrome elevation, a controlling zone RVR is reported by ATC as falling below the specified minimum, the approach may be continued to the minima.
.... which is all very nice in theory but it doesn't stop anyone descending to 200 feet on a cat I approach with 1000 metres vis in driving rain and 45 knots of crosswind in mod/severe turbulence - which is what it was like up here over the weekend.
Approach bans aren't really relevant to this discussion.
Approach bans aren't really relevant to this discussion.
Last edited by DirectAnywhere; 28th Jan 2013 at 22:03.
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We use the approach ban on all approaches not just low vis cat II cat III approaches. Both domestic and international arms of Virgin now have approach bans on all approaches. It is not restricted to just low vis ops!
If the weather is reported below the minima before the approach ban altitude or point, the crew are not permitted to continue the approach below or beyond the approach ban..ILS,RNAV,NBD,VOR.
If the weather is reported below the minima before the approach ban altitude or point, the crew are not permitted to continue the approach below or beyond the approach ban..ILS,RNAV,NBD,VOR.
Last edited by fmcinop; 29th Jan 2013 at 08:00.
How much cloud bellow a NPA's MDA does there need to be before the approach gets "banned"
i.e. A RNAV APP with a MDA of say 5-600' but the airport is reporting few or scattered cloud at 4-500' would you not be allowed to fly that approach?
i.e. A RNAV APP with a MDA of say 5-600' but the airport is reporting few or scattered cloud at 4-500' would you not be allowed to fly that approach?
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An instrument approach may be commenced regardless of the reported RVR/VIS but the approach shall not be continued beyond the outer marker, or equivalent position, if the reported RVR/Visibility is less than the applicable landing minima.
Where no outer marker or equivalent position exists, the Commander shall make the decision to continue or abandon the approach before descending below 1000 ft above the aerodrome on the final approach segment.
If, after passing the outer marker or equivalent position depicted on the Instrument Approach Chart, the reported RVR/Visibility falls below the applicable minimum, the approach may be continued to DA(H) or MDA(H).
A pilot may continue the approach below DA(H) or MDA(H) and the landing may be completed provided that the required visual reference is established at the DA(H) or MDA(H) and is maintained.
Commencement and Continuation of an Approach in Australia
The approach shall not be continued beyond 1000ft AAL if the RVR / Visibility is less than the applicable landing minima.
Where no outer marker or equivalent position exists, the Commander shall make the decision to continue or abandon the approach before descending below 1000 ft above the aerodrome on the final approach segment.
If, after passing the outer marker or equivalent position depicted on the Instrument Approach Chart, the reported RVR/Visibility falls below the applicable minimum, the approach may be continued to DA(H) or MDA(H).
A pilot may continue the approach below DA(H) or MDA(H) and the landing may be completed provided that the required visual reference is established at the DA(H) or MDA(H) and is maintained.
Commencement and Continuation of an Approach in Australia
The approach shall not be continued beyond 1000ft AAL if the RVR / Visibility is less than the applicable landing minima.
Sleeve,
Your cut and paste is not from any Australian AIP/regulation....yet.
Fmcinop
Approach bans are JAA(EASA) pertinent to LVO's (essentially) with Transmissiometers reporting RVRs in usually the three zones. Who's going to report the cloud base in Charleville when I'm doing my RNAV....the refueller??
The adoption of such by operators as SOP is fine, good actually, but certainly not mandated by state procedures,
Isn't MEL Australia's only place with a cat II at present?
Your cut and paste is not from any Australian AIP/regulation....yet.
Fmcinop
Approach bans are JAA(EASA) pertinent to LVO's (essentially) with Transmissiometers reporting RVRs in usually the three zones. Who's going to report the cloud base in Charleville when I'm doing my RNAV....the refueller??
The adoption of such by operators as SOP is fine, good actually, but certainly not mandated by state procedures,
Isn't MEL Australia's only place with a cat II at present?
Watchdog
Can’t speak for JAA(EASA) but in a large number of Asian country’s it applies to all approaches.
I’m not sure where you get cloud base from in your argument when talking about “Approach Ban”. RVR/Vis is the only determining factor for “Approach Bans” and we are only talking about airports that have a met observer or Transmissiometers, i.e. airports that accept RPT turboprop/jet transports. The idea of having “Approach ban” requirements out in the bush where actual WX reports aren’t available is impractical and plainly nonsense.
Mel RWY 16 is actually Cat IIIB to approved operators.
In reference to the thread regarding WX at OOL on the 27th Jan, an Approach Ban would only be relevant for some operators if the reported Vis on the ATIS or tower was below 4000m for VOR 14/32, 4100m RNAV 32 or 4500m RNAV 14. What the wind is doing is irrelevant to “Approach Ban”. This is an aircraft limitation issue. If outside the limits you can have a go in the hope it will reduce below the limits by the time you land, and/or hold and/or divert.
Approach bans are JAA(EASA) pertinent to LVO's (essentially) with Transmissiometers reporting RVRs in usually the three zones.
Who's going to report the cloud base in Charleville when I'm doing my RNAV....the refueller??
Isn't MEL Australia's only place with a cat II at present?
In reference to the thread regarding WX at OOL on the 27th Jan, an Approach Ban would only be relevant for some operators if the reported Vis on the ATIS or tower was below 4000m for VOR 14/32, 4100m RNAV 32 or 4500m RNAV 14. What the wind is doing is irrelevant to “Approach Ban”. This is an aircraft limitation issue. If outside the limits you can have a go in the hope it will reduce below the limits by the time you land, and/or hold and/or divert.
Last edited by 404 Titan; 30th Jan 2013 at 04:18.
Originally Posted by 404 Titan
I’m not sure where you get cloud base from in your argument when talking about “Approach Ban”. RVR/Vis is the only determining factor for “Approach Bans” and we are only talking about airports that have a met observer or Transmissiometers, i.e. airports that accept RPT turboprop/jet transports. The idea of having “Approach ban” requirements out in the bush where actual WX reports aren’t available is impractical and plainly nonsense.
Capn Bloggs
Read what I said again. When you have you will see that what I said was an “Approach Ban” would only work at airports that can provide a RVR/Vis report, i.e. on the ATIS or from the tower to the pilot. I fly to plenty of airports around Asia where the ability of the Met/tower observer to determine the actual visibility is questionable. I’m still compelled to adhere to the “Approach Ban” requirements in my company Ops Manual even at airports that only have a VOR approach.
Read what I said again. When you have you will see that what I said was an “Approach Ban” would only work at airports that can provide a RVR/Vis report, i.e. on the ATIS or from the tower to the pilot. I fly to plenty of airports around Asia where the ability of the Met/tower observer to determine the actual visibility is questionable. I’m still compelled to adhere to the “Approach Ban” requirements in my company Ops Manual even at airports that only have a VOR approach.
Titan,
I did read your post. I was pointing out that
does not apply at dozens of jet RPT ports in Oz.
Further to your comment about questionable towers, it is bordering on the ridiculous to accept an ATIS statement of say "vis reducing to 4km in showers/rain" (or something 100m less that the approach minimums) as reason to not to do an approach to the minimums. And as I alluded-to previously, it is just as questionable to start the approach, then get a visibility assessment from the bloke in the tower when you get to 1000ft (or whatever the AB point is). In a lot of scenarios the tower (or met observer) will be in no position to give me an accurate vis on final.
I suppose that's why CASA hasn't introduced the procedure... Fine for transmissiometer-equipped runways, a hindrance for all other ops ie the vast majority of jet ops in Oz.
I did read your post. I was pointing out that
Originally Posted by 404 Titan
we are only talking about airports that have a met observer or Transmissiometers, i.e. airports that accept RPT turboprop/jet transports.
Further to your comment about questionable towers, it is bordering on the ridiculous to accept an ATIS statement of say "vis reducing to 4km in showers/rain" (or something 100m less that the approach minimums) as reason to not to do an approach to the minimums. And as I alluded-to previously, it is just as questionable to start the approach, then get a visibility assessment from the bloke in the tower when you get to 1000ft (or whatever the AB point is). In a lot of scenarios the tower (or met observer) will be in no position to give me an accurate vis on final.
I suppose that's why CASA hasn't introduced the procedure... Fine for transmissiometer-equipped runways, a hindrance for all other ops ie the vast majority of jet ops in Oz.
Our company flies to some of the best AND worst Airports all over the World and the system seems to work just fine.
Yes at any uncontrolled Airport you'll be on your own and obviously a different set of rules should apply..
Yes at any uncontrolled Airport you'll be on your own and obviously a different set of rules should apply..
Last edited by nitpicker330; 30th Jan 2013 at 05:56.
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Watchdog, try this from Jepp Intro section.
Approach Ban - An approach procedure, for which continuation beyond a specific point, and or specified height, if the reported visibility or RVR is below the minimum specified for that approach.
Approach Ban - An approach procedure, for which continuation beyond a specific point, and or specified height, if the reported visibility or RVR is below the minimum specified for that approach.
Capn Bloggs
As nitpicker330 has said our company flies to some of the best and worst airports in the world and the system works just fine. You need to get out and smell the roses. The way it works in Australia isn’t always the best you know and that goes for met services.
As nitpicker330 has said our company flies to some of the best and worst airports in the world and the system works just fine. You need to get out and smell the roses. The way it works in Australia isn’t always the best you know and that goes for met services.
The way it works in Australia isn’t always the best you know and that goes for met services.
Without the appropriate met services, the AB system will be a pain and a nuisance. For the umpteenth time, I am not opposed to any system that might stop nutcases trying to land in fog (seems to be a lot of that overseas...); the system must though be supported by the proper infrastructure. Otherwise, it just becomes another unnecessary distraction and danger for crews as they terminate more approaches at the FAF, as well as in all probability increasing costs because of unnecessary go-arounds and diversions.
Originally Posted by Sleeve
Watchdog, try this from Jepp Intro section.
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...200 feet on a cat I approach with 1000 metres vis in driving rain and 45 knots of crosswind in mod/severe turbulence - which is what it was like up here over the weekend.