Air New Zealands future Job Prospects
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or get your 500 multi command and go to Auz to earn $100k+
@sum1, yes correct, as pointed out in other posts.
+5 more long haul...over 4yrs.
however -2 on the 737 to A320 swap out as it stands
Thats for the jet fleet.
@sum1, yes correct, as pointed out in other posts.
+5 more long haul...over 4yrs.
however -2 on the 737 to A320 swap out as it stands
Thats for the jet fleet.
Last edited by DeltaT; 30th Aug 2013 at 08:37.
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Thanks for your kind words and encouragement Offcut, and I do mean that sincerely.
In the last couple of years however we have been fed the message within the Link carriers that we are all one company, we are all Air New Zealanders etc. It is therefore frustrating that when one wants to progress ones career within the company, one is expected to jump through the same hoops as someone applying from outside with no track record within the company, despite my continuing demonstration of my competency as a Captain for the Air New Zealand group.
I have ten years sim and training records within the Air New Zealand group. I have personal recommendations from my Air New Zealand managers who have worked with me professionally over that period. Nevertheless, I am expected to pay for my own flights (on Air New Zealand) to Auckland for a two day interview process (on my days off). I am then put in a sim for 30 minutes. What does the recruitment panel expect to get from a 30 minute sim ride that I have not demonstrated over the past ten years at a Link Carrier? What does it say about the value that Air New Zealand mainline puts on the Link check and training departments?
I then take part in a panel interview where I am expected to demonstrate my commitment to Air New Zealand. I have stayed within the Air New Zealand group for ten years, I have not chased JetConnect, Pac Blue, Jetstar etc. As for my customer service skills, as a Captain at a Link carrier I have a far greater impact on the safety of a flight than I would as a Second Officer on a widebody. I have far more direct interaction with the public, meeting them face to face on an average four flights a day as I currently do, as they board and disembark. As an S/O I wouldn't even make a P/A, let alone help carry bags on board, chat with passengers etc.
Once within Air New Zealand mainline, I would not have to jump through the same hoops to transfer between fleets etc. Why do I have to do it to move from a turboprop to a jet? Sorry, but all I can see is that the jet fleet do not see themselves as part of the Air New Zealand group - if nothing else, if they had concerns about my ability to be an effective S/O then surely they would have even more concerns about my ability to be an effective Captain, wearing an Air New Zealand uniform on a turboprop. As part of the big picture, do they not think (do they care?) that, since my career prospects within the group are now effectivly zero I will be looking outside the group to further my career.
Sorry about the rant, but this is the only effective means of communication left to me. I received a brief phone call from HR saying I was unsuccessful, could not reapply and that no feedback would be provided. I emailed my current manager with these concerns and did not even get the courtesy of an acknowledgement of my email. I resent it a few weeks late copying in the Chief Pilot of Air New Zealand (yes, the publicity seeking one that never seems to miss an opportunity for self promotion) and still did not receive a reply. Well, given the current hiring boom, if Air New Zealand can't use my skills, I will look elsewhere. Makes their avowed motto (among others) of "attracting, developing and retaining the right people" ring a little hollow.
In the last couple of years however we have been fed the message within the Link carriers that we are all one company, we are all Air New Zealanders etc. It is therefore frustrating that when one wants to progress ones career within the company, one is expected to jump through the same hoops as someone applying from outside with no track record within the company, despite my continuing demonstration of my competency as a Captain for the Air New Zealand group.
I have ten years sim and training records within the Air New Zealand group. I have personal recommendations from my Air New Zealand managers who have worked with me professionally over that period. Nevertheless, I am expected to pay for my own flights (on Air New Zealand) to Auckland for a two day interview process (on my days off). I am then put in a sim for 30 minutes. What does the recruitment panel expect to get from a 30 minute sim ride that I have not demonstrated over the past ten years at a Link Carrier? What does it say about the value that Air New Zealand mainline puts on the Link check and training departments?
I then take part in a panel interview where I am expected to demonstrate my commitment to Air New Zealand. I have stayed within the Air New Zealand group for ten years, I have not chased JetConnect, Pac Blue, Jetstar etc. As for my customer service skills, as a Captain at a Link carrier I have a far greater impact on the safety of a flight than I would as a Second Officer on a widebody. I have far more direct interaction with the public, meeting them face to face on an average four flights a day as I currently do, as they board and disembark. As an S/O I wouldn't even make a P/A, let alone help carry bags on board, chat with passengers etc.
Once within Air New Zealand mainline, I would not have to jump through the same hoops to transfer between fleets etc. Why do I have to do it to move from a turboprop to a jet? Sorry, but all I can see is that the jet fleet do not see themselves as part of the Air New Zealand group - if nothing else, if they had concerns about my ability to be an effective S/O then surely they would have even more concerns about my ability to be an effective Captain, wearing an Air New Zealand uniform on a turboprop. As part of the big picture, do they not think (do they care?) that, since my career prospects within the group are now effectivly zero I will be looking outside the group to further my career.
Sorry about the rant, but this is the only effective means of communication left to me. I received a brief phone call from HR saying I was unsuccessful, could not reapply and that no feedback would be provided. I emailed my current manager with these concerns and did not even get the courtesy of an acknowledgement of my email. I resent it a few weeks late copying in the Chief Pilot of Air New Zealand (yes, the publicity seeking one that never seems to miss an opportunity for self promotion) and still did not receive a reply. Well, given the current hiring boom, if Air New Zealand can't use my skills, I will look elsewhere. Makes their avowed motto (among others) of "attracting, developing and retaining the right people" ring a little hollow.
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you make some good points cc.
agree with almost all except
career progression perhaps.
air nz is not the be all and end all. good luck with what ever you want to do next.
agree with almost all except
my career prospects within the group are now effectivly zero
air nz is not the be all and end all. good luck with what ever you want to do next.
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Hello CC,
what is the situation in your company? Is it the same company or just under contract?
Do you get the same wages, the same ID Tickets and other benefits as „THE SAME COMPANY“ mainline?
Or do you have only the same aircraft livery, uniform + motivation pattern?
From other companies and people I have seen the similar story:
They have been told for many years: “We are one company”
The same aircraft livery, uniform + motivation pattern but
different ID Tickets regulation and other benefits and much! lower salaries as „THE SAME COMPANY“ mainline!
And, when it came to the day of change, the mainline employees got an increase of salaries and the “We are one company” closes the doors and the emploees are unemployed after much more than ten years of “we are one company”.
what is the situation in your company? Is it the same company or just under contract?
Do you get the same wages, the same ID Tickets and other benefits as „THE SAME COMPANY“ mainline?
Or do you have only the same aircraft livery, uniform + motivation pattern?
From other companies and people I have seen the similar story:
They have been told for many years: “We are one company”
The same aircraft livery, uniform + motivation pattern but
different ID Tickets regulation and other benefits and much! lower salaries as „THE SAME COMPANY“ mainline!
And, when it came to the day of change, the mainline employees got an increase of salaries and the “We are one company” closes the doors and the emploees are unemployed after much more than ten years of “we are one company”.
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CC, fair enough. If you received no feedback then you have been poorly treated. Everyone should get a reason, and my understanding was that unless you really screwed the pooch generally applicants get another shot. One word of advice would be don't pay too much attention to the HR wonks. There is so much going on at the moment that one hand often doesn't know what the other is doing. Keep updating and emailing the right people to find out what went wrong last time. All your points about working in the links are fair ones. It was my route in as well. Despite the "we are all in this together" talk, Airnz is definitely not one airline for the staff. And this is very deliberate.
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CC
Suggesting Air NZ mainline is somehow propped up by the links is something of a "long bow to draw", the reality is the group has a symbiotic existence. One would not prosper without the other. And don't forget many of the link routes were gifted years ago.
I am sorry to read of your experience with the recruitment process. By reading your posts, perhaps your tone of entitlement came through in the interview.
I'm not privy to that process. But I do know it takes a cluster in a few areas to get a "don't come back ever".... It could be argued your result in fact vindicates the current process, because on the surface it sounds like you should have romped in.
Suggesting Air NZ mainline is somehow propped up by the links is something of a "long bow to draw", the reality is the group has a symbiotic existence. One would not prosper without the other. And don't forget many of the link routes were gifted years ago.
I am sorry to read of your experience with the recruitment process. By reading your posts, perhaps your tone of entitlement came through in the interview.
I'm not privy to that process. But I do know it takes a cluster in a few areas to get a "don't come back ever".... It could be argued your result in fact vindicates the current process, because on the surface it sounds like you should have romped in.
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Well well well, more and more people are coming forward about the way Air NZ recruits and even from within the ranks. That was very well written CC. I do hope the right people within Air NZ start to take notice and stop being 'yes men'.
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Air New Zealands future Job Prospects
My understanding from an interviewer is that they work very hard to get some of the guys through. Bearing in mind the numbers of pilots needed over the next couple of years, to not have the bulk of an interview round be accepted is a huge issue for the company. They are actively trying to help guys pass. I haven't personally heard of anyone fail for anything other than very necessary reasons. It must be gutting to miss out on something you have worked a long time towards, but I don't see anyone to blame except yourself. The process is very fair, it's run by pilots, and there is a huge demand. For those about to interview make sure you do plenty of work. It's not a given to pass, you aren't entitled to the job.
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Capt. Condom, Air NZ is only 15 years behind QF (for example) with its draconian recruiting practices.
You have to understand that when you work for a subsidiary company the cards are stacked against you from the outset, compared to someone off the street when it comes to career progression. Primarily (especially if you're a captain in a subsidiary) it's the "double training" that gets you - the subsidiary has to train a replacement captain to fill your spot, and a replacement needs to be employed for the FO that got the upgrade. All those nasty training costs come off the bottom line of the group entity.
Therefore, it's more cost effective for the parent company to hire someone off the street than it is to do so from within the group.
As for success rate at interview - when I finished up doing it in 2008 for the QF group, it was about a 15% pass rate (in spite of one's best efforts to get the candidate through). The standard was not reduced to allow for lack of experience/poor training (key factor) or other factors.
Your best bet is to take your expertise outside of the AirNZ group in my opinion.
You have to understand that when you work for a subsidiary company the cards are stacked against you from the outset, compared to someone off the street when it comes to career progression. Primarily (especially if you're a captain in a subsidiary) it's the "double training" that gets you - the subsidiary has to train a replacement captain to fill your spot, and a replacement needs to be employed for the FO that got the upgrade. All those nasty training costs come off the bottom line of the group entity.
Therefore, it's more cost effective for the parent company to hire someone off the street than it is to do so from within the group.
As for success rate at interview - when I finished up doing it in 2008 for the QF group, it was about a 15% pass rate (in spite of one's best efforts to get the candidate through). The standard was not reduced to allow for lack of experience/poor training (key factor) or other factors.
Your best bet is to take your expertise outside of the AirNZ group in my opinion.
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CC, reading between the lines of your post, and assuming you did ok in the sim, then I'd suggest you said or did something that upset the Human Remains (HR) oxygen thieves.
These leaches have over the years got their toxic influence up to such a level that they often have the ultimate say so over if get employed or not.
It will mostly have nothing to do with you being able to do the job...more likely they have assessed that due to you not being able to weave a basket or perhaps convey a time when etc etc...you are in fact a closet axe murderer, or display latent pedophile tendencies, and are thus more suited to a role in HR, or revenue management
These leaches have over the years got their toxic influence up to such a level that they often have the ultimate say so over if get employed or not.
It will mostly have nothing to do with you being able to do the job...more likely they have assessed that due to you not being able to weave a basket or perhaps convey a time when etc etc...you are in fact a closet axe murderer, or display latent pedophile tendencies, and are thus more suited to a role in HR, or revenue management
Last edited by haughtney1; 31st Aug 2013 at 12:15.
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Lets not let the facts get in the way of some good old fashioned pilot bitching!
Actually its quite the opposite. Air NZ has pretty much been through the Link Captains and instructors, now they are moving onto the more junior guys. What is happening though is that they are upgrading FOs, giving them around 3 months in a command and then offering them an interview. They are going out of their way to try and make the process orderly and to give preference to Link pilots. Because of the shear numbers required outside candidates will be required, and of course there will always be the guys from the Air Force. To say that the cards are stacked against you as a pilot for a subsidiary is about as wrong as you can get.
I know that people love to beat up on HR, and Im not always convinced by them, but people have to wake up to the realities of the process. HR do the initial weeding out of people in order to get guys to an interview. Things like have you got the prerequisite number of hours and licences etc, requirements laid down by pilots! The interview process basically revolves around two key aspects, the sim and the interview. Don't stuff up the other parts but realistically it comes down to the sim and the interview. The sim will see you in there with two pilots. The interview is the same, though there may be an HR type in there as well. A lot of guys I know that have been through recently didn't have the HR person there, and the ones that did didn't cop many questions from them.
Pilots are running the show, and the ones that I know that are interviewers etc are top blokes. Again I feel terrible for the guys that miss out, it must be gutting. The reality is though that to miss out at the moment means you did something pretty obviously wrong. Take the sim for example. CC talks about 10 years of good checks etc which is of course fantastic. Now I don't know how he/she did of course, but lets assume that it was the sim. 10 years of great sims followed by one bad sim, unfair? Perhaps, or perhaps there is an expectation that with that sort of background there shouldn't be a grossly bad sim like some of the ones Ive heard about. Interviewers get a short period of time with someone. They aren't expecting perfection in the sim, but they also don't expect you to crash or get lost.
All Im saying with all of this is to be prepared. The interview process isn''t a formality. The company is looking at hiring someone and having them on the books for the next 30 or more years. They need to make good decisions. So do prospective pilots. Do lots of prep, know your stuff backwards and you'll be fine. Walk in with a sense of entitlement and you probably wont find yourself flying for Air NZ jet.
You have to understand that when you work for a subsidiary company the cards are stacked against you from the outset, compared to someone off the street when it comes to career progression. Primarily (especially if you're a captain in a subsidiary) it's the "double training" that gets you - the subsidiary has to train a replacement captain to fill your spot, and a replacement needs to be employed for the FO that got the upgrade. All those nasty training costs come off the bottom line of the group entity.
CC, reading between the lines of your post, and assuming you did ok in the sim, then I'd suggest you said or did something that upset the Human Remains (HR) oxygen thieves.
These leaches have over the years got their toxic influence up to such a level that they often have the ultimate say so over if get employed or not.
It will mostly have nothing to do with you being able to do the job...more likely they have assessed that due to you not being able to weave a basket or perhaps convey a time when etc etc...you are in fact a closet axe murderer, or display latent pedophile tendencies, and are thus more suited to a role in HR, or revenue management
These leaches have over the years got their toxic influence up to such a level that they often have the ultimate say so over if get employed or not.
It will mostly have nothing to do with you being able to do the job...more likely they have assessed that due to you not being able to weave a basket or perhaps convey a time when etc etc...you are in fact a closet axe murderer, or display latent pedophile tendencies, and are thus more suited to a role in HR, or revenue management
Pilots are running the show, and the ones that I know that are interviewers etc are top blokes. Again I feel terrible for the guys that miss out, it must be gutting. The reality is though that to miss out at the moment means you did something pretty obviously wrong. Take the sim for example. CC talks about 10 years of good checks etc which is of course fantastic. Now I don't know how he/she did of course, but lets assume that it was the sim. 10 years of great sims followed by one bad sim, unfair? Perhaps, or perhaps there is an expectation that with that sort of background there shouldn't be a grossly bad sim like some of the ones Ive heard about. Interviewers get a short period of time with someone. They aren't expecting perfection in the sim, but they also don't expect you to crash or get lost.
All Im saying with all of this is to be prepared. The interview process isn''t a formality. The company is looking at hiring someone and having them on the books for the next 30 or more years. They need to make good decisions. So do prospective pilots. Do lots of prep, know your stuff backwards and you'll be fine. Walk in with a sense of entitlement and you probably wont find yourself flying for Air NZ jet.
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Hi all
Reading this thread with great interest, would like to move home. Would someone mind PM'ing me details of the S/O position. What sort of lifestyle do you get, is it commutable (I would live in WLG) and if so how much time do you get at home. I understand you get away allowances but also some taxable ones? Typically what would these add up to /mth?
With the progression going on could you confirm most A320 F/O positions would be Auckland based? How long approx would you wait for a WLG or CHC base?
Would you recommend making the shift? I am currently 37 so getting on a bit. Not too worried about a command, lifestyle, security and getting my salary from the S/O level to a f/O level are the priorities.
Would you come across at my age?
Many thanks in advance.
Reading this thread with great interest, would like to move home. Would someone mind PM'ing me details of the S/O position. What sort of lifestyle do you get, is it commutable (I would live in WLG) and if so how much time do you get at home. I understand you get away allowances but also some taxable ones? Typically what would these add up to /mth?
With the progression going on could you confirm most A320 F/O positions would be Auckland based? How long approx would you wait for a WLG or CHC base?
Would you recommend making the shift? I am currently 37 so getting on a bit. Not too worried about a command, lifestyle, security and getting my salary from the S/O level to a f/O level are the priorities.
Would you come across at my age?
Many thanks in advance.
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Walk in with a sense of entitlement and you probably wont find yourself flying for Air NZ jet.
guys I know that have been through recently didn't have the HR person there
My understanding from an interviewer is that they work very hard to get some of the guys through.
Pilots are running the show
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Delta T, I think what he is saying is that if someone is a bit nervous or whatever, they try to help him/her out. The interview panel truly are trying to get the best out of the candidates. It's not about preferential treatment, just about putting people at ease.
Your question about sterile cockpit is precisely the point. They ask you questions to see how long you will let them distract you before politely asking them to be quiet as you are rather busy just now. You can bang on about the process all you like but it works pretty well. Sometimes quality people have a bad day and don't get through. But that's what an interview is about. You can fly the line safely for six months but if you fail a sim ride, guess what? It's all about turning it on and performing when called to. The simple fact is, the pass rate is high. They interview to a standard, not to a number. They could pass all on a round, or none. You are not in competition with one another. On our group we all spent a lot of time together prepping and reviewing and generally helping each other out. And we all got through.
Astina pilot,
In the GA and questions forum is a thread that answers most of your questions. If you search posts by me you should find it.
Your question about sterile cockpit is precisely the point. They ask you questions to see how long you will let them distract you before politely asking them to be quiet as you are rather busy just now. You can bang on about the process all you like but it works pretty well. Sometimes quality people have a bad day and don't get through. But that's what an interview is about. You can fly the line safely for six months but if you fail a sim ride, guess what? It's all about turning it on and performing when called to. The simple fact is, the pass rate is high. They interview to a standard, not to a number. They could pass all on a round, or none. You are not in competition with one another. On our group we all spent a lot of time together prepping and reviewing and generally helping each other out. And we all got through.
Astina pilot,
In the GA and questions forum is a thread that answers most of your questions. If you search posts by me you should find it.
Last edited by Offcut; 2nd Sep 2013 at 20:16.
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Actually its quite the opposite. Air NZ has pretty much been through the Link Captains and instructors, now they are moving onto the more junior guys. What is happening though is that they are upgrading FOs, giving them around 3 months in a command and then offering them an interview. They are going out of their way to try and make the process orderly and to give preference to Link pilots. Because of the shear numbers required outside candidates will be required, and of course there will always be the guys from the Air Force. To say that the cards are stacked against you as a pilot for a subsidiary is about as wrong as you can get.
My statement was based upon almost 15 years experience with the QF system, which all but excludes subsidiary pilots (apart from a tiny trickle) from moving through the group.
It seems AirNZ recognises the talent within its subsidiaries, and that's a good thing
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They ask you questions to see how long you will let them distract you before politely asking them to be quiet as you are rather busy just now.
In the sim when told I will be asked questions and to answer them to my best ability, I am supposed to tell him to
off when I am busy, but when in the interview I say how I follow company SOP complicity.
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Air New Zealands future Job Prospects
Some guys seem to work pretty hard at trying to NOT pass an interview.
There is some excellent advice on these forums. If you want to join Air NZ then follow the advice, it's pretty simple to do. If you want to bitch and moan about the selection process before you are in the company then be sure to continue to do that if you manage to get an interview. That will go down very well.
There is some excellent advice on these forums. If you want to join Air NZ then follow the advice, it's pretty simple to do. If you want to bitch and moan about the selection process before you are in the company then be sure to continue to do that if you manage to get an interview. That will go down very well.
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Seems to me, based on reading this thread, that Air NZ is doing a very good job at keeping the idiots out.
From what I heard and subsequently witnessed, the process is very fair and not there to trick anyone out of a job. If you failed, get over it and move on.
From what I heard and subsequently witnessed, the process is very fair and not there to trick anyone out of a job. If you failed, get over it and move on.
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You beat me to it kev2002. I probably wouldn't have gone as far as using the word 'idiot' however.
It is funny how you can read some comments on an anonymous forum that give you a feeling about someones personality traits. If certain traits come through on here I'm sure as s#it that they shine through when face to face.
Just sayin.
It is funny how you can read some comments on an anonymous forum that give you a feeling about someones personality traits. If certain traits come through on here I'm sure as s#it that they shine through when face to face.
Just sayin.