Swiss Cheese ASA Style
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Oh, Woody, where do I start?
Certainly not. However, there are very few employers setting out to run a safety-critical operation with insufficient staff numbers to the point that they RELY on overtime, and lots of it, to keep the doors open.
When the local plumber makes a mistake because he is tired, what are the ramifications?
That'd be voluntary overtime, right? As in, different to what AsA requires, right?
It's not about missing the odd family day- it's about missing every family day, because you get harassed to attend a lot (my record was 7 phone calls for different overtime shifts on a rare weekend away, after informing them that I would be away for the weekend).
And they do... which is mind-boggling that anyone would resign from such a good job. I think most would agree the issue is not with the job itself (I don't know anyone who doesn't love the job ), the issue is with the employer.
That's just outright bull$hit. Then again, so is muddying the waters on what the thread is about.
The problems of shiftwork and replacing sick workers are NOT unique to ATC
your local plumber is just as stuffed if his apprentice fails to show for a two-man job as is your local TCU
any nurse who's ever worked in a public hospital is well familiar with what overtime really means
any fire fighter or police officer or ADF member can probably have a few things to say about cancelling days with the family or missing a game of golf.
unlike RAAF ATCs, are free to resign at the drop of a hat
I'm a shift-working controller and I earn triple what my shift-working ER nurse wife does, for half the hours
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I'm not really going to remain here to trade blows - I've said my piece, and am happy if people want to look into it rationally and decide why they do or don't agree with me - but the first and last points from ferris there just can't be left alone.
As I have more than a passing acquaintance with the public health system, I reckon you'd be aghast if you knew how many "safety critical" things in your local hospital are being done by inexperienced, underqualified doctors; how long the nurse monitoring an intensive care patient with constant vigilance for any sign of destabilisation might have been on duty (hint: 24 hour might not be long enough); how many 2-hour operations the cardiovascular surgeon working on your Nanna might have done in a row before this one; and how many people are queuing at universities to hand over $40,000 or more to the government to do their 3-year nursing degree (or $200k or more for a five-year medicine degree) merely so they can be eligible for all this joy on a starting salary less than $50k.
None of this is forgivable or even acceptable, of course, but my point isn't that ASA is some cornucopia of luxury, simply that if you base your complaints to management (or the internet) on the idea that being an ASA employee is uniquely hard or oppressive, you won't make much traction beyond your immediate circle of peers.
That's all I mean to say, not to demean your grievances or argue with your experience.
Edit: typo
As I have more than a passing acquaintance with the public health system, I reckon you'd be aghast if you knew how many "safety critical" things in your local hospital are being done by inexperienced, underqualified doctors; how long the nurse monitoring an intensive care patient with constant vigilance for any sign of destabilisation might have been on duty (hint: 24 hour might not be long enough); how many 2-hour operations the cardiovascular surgeon working on your Nanna might have done in a row before this one; and how many people are queuing at universities to hand over $40,000 or more to the government to do their 3-year nursing degree (or $200k or more for a five-year medicine degree) merely so they can be eligible for all this joy on a starting salary less than $50k.
None of this is forgivable or even acceptable, of course, but my point isn't that ASA is some cornucopia of luxury, simply that if you base your complaints to management (or the internet) on the idea that being an ASA employee is uniquely hard or oppressive, you won't make much traction beyond your immediate circle of peers.
That's all I mean to say, not to demean your grievances or argue with your experience.
Edit: typo
Last edited by Woodwork; 30th Oct 2012 at 00:43.
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ASA has gone from Swiss Cheese to a block of crumbling Parmesan cheese, things are not getting better. The longer this bureaucratic lunacy continues the closer we come to melted cheese. Tick tock.
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ASA ATCs are extraordinarily well-compensated for a non degree-qualified job
There is nothing fair about a nurse, policeman or firies wages. Doesn't change the fact that ASA is playing a risky game here, they are playing a game according to excel spreadsheets that have consequences. You can piss and moan all you like and compare forever, but try comparing it to Lake Constance, not only the event but the on-going ramifications. There were identified organisational deficiencies that contributed to this.
ASA explodes at the seams with floor walkers that will present power point risk management strategies to ATC's who shake their head at the tripe. Like a pilot, sit in the chair and make the decisions, know that every single transmission, mouse click and action you take is recorded. I would love for every single employee in ASA to have every single action, every single phone call, financial decision etc to be recorded and for them to have to justify such. I would love for their performance to be assessed the way mine is.
I don't give a rats what the public perception of me is, I do give a rats when lies are promulgated in public from the managers that should be facilitating a safe and efficient service. I do give a rats when 'operational requirement' is used in a NOTAM to describe 'staff shortage,' weasel dick words from those who haven't got the courage to admit they have made a massive mistake with operational staffing.
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None of this is forgivable or even acceptable, of course, but my point isn't that ASA is some cornucopia of luxury, simply that if you base your complaints to management (or the internet) on the idea that being an ASA employee is uniquely hard or oppressive, you won't make much traction beyond your immediate circle of peers.
It doesn't have to be like this. Woody, with your vast experience of other employers (being 30 years old with 11 years of controlling experience {
} ) should know this. It doesn't have to be like this.In the mean time, the "at risk remuneration" culture rolls on.
If your life is so unhappy with ASA - noting you give your location as Europe, which I didn't think had any ASA locations - have you considered doing something else?
As long as everyone is happy to have a tired controller who has worked 20 shifts in the last 22 days working their plane, nothing will change.
Unfortunately, they end up in management. This is because we don't sack them, as this will look bad on the academy's/centre's kpi's for staff turn over. We promote sideways and these people are already disgruntled due being washed out.
An ex atc/fso does not necessarily a good manager make. I work for one.
There are students at the academy who have been backcoursed 3 times. Because mgt down there can't/won't sack them. They all try and get them support roles around the place. This explains why the ASA workforce numbers have soared in recent years and also explains the deadwood in the place.
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An ex atc/fso does not necessarily a good manager make. I work for one.
There are students at the academy who have been backcoursed 3 times. Because mgt down there can't/won't sack them. They all try and get them support roles around the place. This explains why the ASA workforce numbers have soared in recent years and also explains the deadwood in the place.
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Think on.
Plane Talking – Sandilands.
Enough distraction, peoples lives are at risk, not just the passengers. Not to worry, CASA will sort it, you watch.
PS. Not many 'other' trades end up with a criminal record for a stuff up. ATS is just one of the lucky ones, bit like pilots really. Oh, Don't feed the trolls. K.
In relation to the unsafe state of air traffic control in Australia, the ATSB report says:
We are continuing our work to understand and mitigate the number of breakdowns of separation (BOS) and losses of separation assurance (LOSA) in air traffic control. Although the rate of these occurrences this year was broadly reflective of earlier years, we continue to examine individual occurrences in order to prevent their recurrence, but have also initiated a safety research investigation to bring the results of completed investigations together and compare their results with each other and the overall occurrence data set. To date, no significant, systemic safety issues have been identified as a result of our ongoing assessment of BOS/LOSA occurrences.
In fact, the ATSB produced in the year to June a series of reports into air traffic control failings which identify incomplete recurrent training issues in occurrences that have included controllers forgetting what they were doing and vectoring airliners into converging paths, in some cases annotated by the second and complete with diagrams that bring the performance of ASirServices Australia into disrepute.
The ATSB appears to operate to a unique meaning of the word ‘systemic’ given the fact that is has identified recurrent and entrenched issues in AirServices Australia and some air operators which it has chosen not to label as ‘systemic’.
We have safety problems in this country, and we have a problem with their full and frank disclosure.
We are continuing our work to understand and mitigate the number of breakdowns of separation (BOS) and losses of separation assurance (LOSA) in air traffic control. Although the rate of these occurrences this year was broadly reflective of earlier years, we continue to examine individual occurrences in order to prevent their recurrence, but have also initiated a safety research investigation to bring the results of completed investigations together and compare their results with each other and the overall occurrence data set. To date, no significant, systemic safety issues have been identified as a result of our ongoing assessment of BOS/LOSA occurrences.
In fact, the ATSB produced in the year to June a series of reports into air traffic control failings which identify incomplete recurrent training issues in occurrences that have included controllers forgetting what they were doing and vectoring airliners into converging paths, in some cases annotated by the second and complete with diagrams that bring the performance of ASirServices Australia into disrepute.
The ATSB appears to operate to a unique meaning of the word ‘systemic’ given the fact that is has identified recurrent and entrenched issues in AirServices Australia and some air operators which it has chosen not to label as ‘systemic’.
We have safety problems in this country, and we have a problem with their full and frank disclosure.
Enough distraction, peoples lives are at risk, not just the passengers. Not to worry, CASA will sort it, you watch.
PS. Not many 'other' trades end up with a criminal record for a stuff up. ATS is just one of the lucky ones, bit like pilots really. Oh, Don't feed the trolls. K.
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Despite Ben's efforts, the safety angle doesn't seem to be getting much traction.
Perhaps the mismanagement at Airservices might be put under the spotlight if money is mentioned? The deliberate under-staffing benefits managers and the "profit" returned to the govt, but at what cost? If somebody ran the numbers and pointed out that the cost of, say, 400 more controllers would be less costly than the amount of jet fuel wasted in airspace closures, unnecessary delays, etc. etc. in short "systemic inefficiency" driven by short-sighted, bonus-driven management goals, would they change?
The cost to the country in terms of lost productivity (think- FIFO miners sitting on the ground for longer than their flight, hoards of businesspeople experiencing delays as they hold, or detour around flow-constricted volumes etc. etc.) must be staggering. If someone put the sword to the fallacy that less controllers= national benefit, things might change.
The "silo thinking" that drives this wasteful cost shifting is old. Is good governance just beyond us anymore?
Perhaps the mismanagement at Airservices might be put under the spotlight if money is mentioned? The deliberate under-staffing benefits managers and the "profit" returned to the govt, but at what cost? If somebody ran the numbers and pointed out that the cost of, say, 400 more controllers would be less costly than the amount of jet fuel wasted in airspace closures, unnecessary delays, etc. etc. in short "systemic inefficiency" driven by short-sighted, bonus-driven management goals, would they change?
The cost to the country in terms of lost productivity (think- FIFO miners sitting on the ground for longer than their flight, hoards of businesspeople experiencing delays as they hold, or detour around flow-constricted volumes etc. etc.) must be staggering. If someone put the sword to the fallacy that less controllers= national benefit, things might change.
The "silo thinking" that drives this wasteful cost shifting is old. Is good governance just beyond us anymore?
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Personally I don't understand the connection at all. The skill set required to be a successful ATC is unique...we've seen people with doctorates fail. Degree quals or not have zero bearing. How many Cathay 747 captains are degree qualified?
Personally I don't understand the connection at all. The skill set required to be a successful ATC is unique...we've seen people with doctorates fail. Degree quals or not have zero bearing. How many Cathay 747 captains are degree qualified?
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In most circumstances I don't mind responding to a troll, some of the time what they are posting are maybe points that others are wondering about. I don't for one moment believe that woodwork is an active controller. I doubt that he/she has held a rating but it maybe good to address his/her points.
More than likely woodwork is part of the hate machine in Canberra, the jealous wannabes disconnected from the core business. One of the the 800 extra floorwalkers who's done a cert 4 in risk management?
More than likely woodwork is part of the hate machine in Canberra, the jealous wannabes disconnected from the core business. One of the the 800 extra floorwalkers who's done a cert 4 in risk management?
While post quote wars are fun I will be brief. I worked for Aussie ATC. It was a cluster fck. I am still an ATC elsewhere and it is rad. While many of the complaints are valid in this thread, from my experience, Aussie ATCs have much they should be looking at themselves to apportion blame for. This is where I would go into a tirade about spinelessness normally but I have gotta go trick or treating.
Hugs n kisses
Tobzalp
Hugs n kisses
Tobzalp
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From the wikileaks links posted in other thread.
Only talks about possibility of downgrade.
US embassy cable - 09CANBERRA1081
Only talks about possibility of downgrade.
US embassy cable - 09CANBERRA1081
Last edited by moa999; 2nd Nov 2012 at 06:59.
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Link to another thread but relevant
Last edited by gobbledock; 2nd Nov 2012 at 10:31.
Remember this...
Q/ Controllers: So is there any sign that it may have arrived on some trough feeders desk yet? Or is there another delay?
Supplementary Senate Estimates 16/10/12:
Mr J McCormick: We did previously inform the committee that we would have that report done by 31 October, and we are on track to do that report and complete that work by 31 October.
Senator XENOPHON: And that will be delivered to the minister?
Mr J McCormick: We have not actually discussed the disposition of the report, other than to say that we will complete that work and then work with Airservices Australia to address the findings, such that they are.
Senator XENOPHON: So it might not see the light of day for several months, depending on the response from Airservices?
Mr J McCormick: It is more or less like any other audit report in a lot of ways: it has to be discussed with the people who are being audited. We do not do the report just to produce it and throw it away or disregard it; we do want some actions out of it. So it is a working document when it is complete.
Mr J McCormick: We did previously inform the committee that we would have that report done by 31 October, and we are on track to do that report and complete that work by 31 October.
Senator XENOPHON: And that will be delivered to the minister?
Mr J McCormick: We have not actually discussed the disposition of the report, other than to say that we will complete that work and then work with Airservices Australia to address the findings, such that they are.
Senator XENOPHON: So it might not see the light of day for several months, depending on the response from Airservices?
Mr J McCormick: It is more or less like any other audit report in a lot of ways: it has to be discussed with the people who are being audited. We do not do the report just to produce it and throw it away or disregard it; we do want some actions out of it. So it is a working document when it is complete.