QANTAS - WHERE TO NOW?
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Exiled in the Ukraine
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sydney Morning Herald;
Read more: Relationship with Joyce strained: pilots
It appears personally the Judges don't agree will little Alan's stunt last November whilst still having to upholding the Law.
What makes it interesting is in next months arbitration, if these judges didn't like AJs tactic, and the Government and FWA panel have been embarrassed by his little stunt and still feel they have egg on their face, could there be a little bit of a sting in the tale for Alan in next months arbitration????
If I was AJ I wouldn't be popping the corks (or sending Olivia to get a facial) just yet!
The judges said that Fair Work Australia should not have ordered the unions to stop their industrial action.
However the operation of the law meant that after Fair Work Australia found Qantas' protected industrial action - the lockout - threatened to cause significant damage to the Australian economy, none of the parties were able to engage in industrial action.
However the operation of the law meant that after Fair Work Australia found Qantas' protected industrial action - the lockout - threatened to cause significant damage to the Australian economy, none of the parties were able to engage in industrial action.
It appears personally the Judges don't agree will little Alan's stunt last November whilst still having to upholding the Law.
What makes it interesting is in next months arbitration, if these judges didn't like AJs tactic, and the Government and FWA panel have been embarrassed by his little stunt and still feel they have egg on their face, could there be a little bit of a sting in the tale for Alan in next months arbitration????
If I was AJ I wouldn't be popping the corks (or sending Olivia to get a facial) just yet!
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SUB.
I hope you are right, but I wouldn't be too sure.
There are plenty of indicators that the company has been keen to get AIPA into arbitration. Not the least of which has been the tactic of 'agreeing' on an EBA point during one meeting and then saying "nah thats now off the table" during the next meeting. I reckon that really fancy their chances.
The fact that the full bench of FWA is stacked with ex-Freehills lawyers might have something to do with this.
As a minority government, desperately clinging to power, the faction of Labor that controls the Caucus at the moment has been desperate to keep big business happy where it could.
Shorten and Julia saw what the miners and the BCA did to Rudd, and know what they have to do to stay in power. Sacrificing a few silver tail pilots to an ideological agenda is a small price to pay in that regard. There is no question in my mind that they knew, or strongly suspected, that Joyce was going to ground the airline.
The fact that Julia directed the Government to 'strongly appose' AIPA's application to the High Court speaks volumes in this regard.
As I said, I hope I am wrong, but I believe AIPA is going to get smashed in arbitration. I remember Joyce's body language on the day of the grounding and the day FWA cancelled the industrial action - he was cock a hoop. The plan was now all falling into place.
I hope you are right, but I wouldn't be too sure.
There are plenty of indicators that the company has been keen to get AIPA into arbitration. Not the least of which has been the tactic of 'agreeing' on an EBA point during one meeting and then saying "nah thats now off the table" during the next meeting. I reckon that really fancy their chances.
The fact that the full bench of FWA is stacked with ex-Freehills lawyers might have something to do with this.
As a minority government, desperately clinging to power, the faction of Labor that controls the Caucus at the moment has been desperate to keep big business happy where it could.
Shorten and Julia saw what the miners and the BCA did to Rudd, and know what they have to do to stay in power. Sacrificing a few silver tail pilots to an ideological agenda is a small price to pay in that regard. There is no question in my mind that they knew, or strongly suspected, that Joyce was going to ground the airline.
The fact that Julia directed the Government to 'strongly appose' AIPA's application to the High Court speaks volumes in this regard.
As I said, I hope I am wrong, but I believe AIPA is going to get smashed in arbitration. I remember Joyce's body language on the day of the grounding and the day FWA cancelled the industrial action - he was cock a hoop. The plan was now all falling into place.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: I'veBeenEverywhereMan
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
5 Posts
This is exactly, exactly ! What Joyce wanted. To get it to the FWA.
The FWA is never going to make qantas pay all jetstar pilots the same money as qantas in any form. He knew this too. Don't get me wrong, I wish that was case. But as long he doesn't have to do that he has won and will continue dissolving more and more sections of QF mainline. His aim is to one day have the majority of QF pilots (weather it be flown in orange colours or red) be on orange wages. This is a very long term plan, -( think future 787, replacements for other aircraft over time and more foreign based crew, upgrades as well)
I truly feel for you guys, as I don't really see what can be done now. A real bloody shame.
The FWA is never going to make qantas pay all jetstar pilots the same money as qantas in any form. He knew this too. Don't get me wrong, I wish that was case. But as long he doesn't have to do that he has won and will continue dissolving more and more sections of QF mainline. His aim is to one day have the majority of QF pilots (weather it be flown in orange colours or red) be on orange wages. This is a very long term plan, -( think future 787, replacements for other aircraft over time and more foreign based crew, upgrades as well)
I truly feel for you guys, as I don't really see what can be done now. A real bloody shame.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Oz
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regardless of what happens guys at least you are fighting this. Better than rolling over and giving them everything they want.
If you want to run your mob as a testosterone fuelled vexatious litigant that's fine mate, but we pilots are supposed to be more sensible.
As one who has more than paid his way over the years I am not happy Jan with the way things are going/have gone. Too much bullsh**t from people like you I think Steve.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bexley
Posts: 1,792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you want to run your mob as a testosterone fuelled vexatious litigant that's fine mate, but we pilots are supposed to be more sensible.
If Qantas has 3000 pilots and 3000 Engineers and have a five year plan that would see each of those groups reduced to zero due to outsourcing or the creation of other airlines we have two options. We can do nothing or we can do something.
If we do nothing 3000 pilots and 3000 Engineers will lose their jobs. If we fight this with whatever means are available at least we have a chance, however small that maybe, that we may win and save those jobs.
What takes place in one court room is just a small part of a much bigger picture. Your Association is trying as hard as they can to protect you from corporate robbery. Please don't blame them or me for the fact that they don't want to employ us in the same manner as they did in the past. My bullsh*t was not part of the reason for them wanting to change things.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are you serious? What a ridiculous statement! Regardless of what happens? If the Union is destroyed that is ok? If all the jobs go overseas that is ok? We pilots pay our dues for results not fine sentiments mate.
This year alone we have seen too many companies lose jobs, QANTAS included. I have lost track of the thousands of jobs that have been shed this year.
To say whatever happens, at least we have put up a fight! The company is going to get what it wants while we are kicking and screaming to resist.
They just enjoy giving it to us while resisting them. They feel it was worth it.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bexley
Posts: 1,792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In 10 years time we could be looking back at this period and saying to ourselves - Why did we sit back and allow them to take our jobs off us without even a fight? We won't be saying that.
The decison of the Federal Court and FWA is just a reflection of the laws that govern this land today. Losing the case does not mean it was all for nothing. It has highlighted the farcical situation that a company can take action against itself and then cry foul that the action is crippling them to remove the right of workers to take lawful action themselves. It has highlighted a flaw in our laws.
In turn it would be most likely that this will drive change in the legal system. FWA will determine the outcome of pilot negotiations but it will take into account the behavior of the parties. AIPAs pilot members can hold their heads up high in this regard and it will be Qantas on the back foot in that forum. Qantas haven't got what they want yet.
The decison of the Federal Court and FWA is just a reflection of the laws that govern this land today. Losing the case does not mean it was all for nothing. It has highlighted the farcical situation that a company can take action against itself and then cry foul that the action is crippling them to remove the right of workers to take lawful action themselves. It has highlighted a flaw in our laws.
In turn it would be most likely that this will drive change in the legal system. FWA will determine the outcome of pilot negotiations but it will take into account the behavior of the parties. AIPAs pilot members can hold their heads up high in this regard and it will be Qantas on the back foot in that forum. Qantas haven't got what they want yet.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilots - Federal court determines Red ties & PA's as Innocuous
Alan Joyce - Justice Nye Perram (Federal Court) concludes Qantas "Opportunistic lock out of pilots"
Alan Joyce - Senate Inquiry states the airline was grounded as a result of the lock out.
Hopefully, FWA will arbitrate appropriately on the "manufactured" situation Qantas created.
Alan Joyce - Justice Nye Perram (Federal Court) concludes Qantas "Opportunistic lock out of pilots"
Alan Joyce - Senate Inquiry states the airline was grounded as a result of the lock out.
Hopefully, FWA will arbitrate appropriately on the "manufactured" situation Qantas created.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: AUS
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The deficiency in the Act is that s 413(7)(a) effectively encourages an employer to perform some significant act of self-harm (eg a grounding) in order to terminate the other parties’ right to PIA and force a determination. The question is was this the intent of the author(s) of the Act? If not, it needs to urgently be addressed via the FWA review.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Christmas Island
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Me thinks at the end of the day... this Qf/JQ.. Pilot/ Engineer outsourcing issue is just a side show for a bigger plan that is being hatched at a political level.
Its never going to be a fair fight. This is just a " testing the waters" issue.
When you look at the who's who from the PM down, and all the past ties, connections, favours, back scratching and big noting... we are pushing Shyte uphill..
The whole thing stinks. They are all a bunch of greedy power mongering judas' who's legacy will infect this country for years to come.
I have little faith in the system these days, but I applaud those who question it and put up a fight. You have my full support, no matter what union or line of work you are in.
rant over...
Its never going to be a fair fight. This is just a " testing the waters" issue.
When you look at the who's who from the PM down, and all the past ties, connections, favours, back scratching and big noting... we are pushing Shyte uphill..
The whole thing stinks. They are all a bunch of greedy power mongering judas' who's legacy will infect this country for years to come.
I have little faith in the system these days, but I applaud those who question it and put up a fight. You have my full support, no matter what union or line of work you are in.
rant over...
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@fedsecalaea
Outside of the tecnicalities and legalities of F Wits Australia, it matters little what happens in there and what decisions are reached. Let's look back at the demise of Ansett, the closing of HM Sydney and the pending closure of Tulla HM and the future closing of Avalon. With all the fighting and kicking and screaming, was it/will it be stopped? Nope.
I've lost count of the number of jobs lost Australia wide this year alone. While companies use the GFC as their excuse to shut down and shift jobs offshore, and the government does nothing but sit back and watch, what hope is there?
But they will. No matter who puts up a fight or who is in government.
hadagutful, I think, has hit the nail on the head. I have less faith than him in the government, the legal system and the unions, who are having their powers eroded, even by the "white collar" Labor party.
In 10 years time we could be looking back at this period and saying to ourselves - Why did we sit back and allow them to take our jobs off us without even a fight? We won't be saying that.
I've lost count of the number of jobs lost Australia wide this year alone. While companies use the GFC as their excuse to shut down and shift jobs offshore, and the government does nothing but sit back and watch, what hope is there?
Qantas haven't got what they want yet.
hadagutful, I think, has hit the nail on the head. I have less faith than him in the government, the legal system and the unions, who are having their powers eroded, even by the "white collar" Labor party.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Skating away on the thin ice of a new day.
Posts: 1,116
Received 13 Likes
on
8 Posts
We need our own party in the senate.
I keep saying it, cos labor have sold out the rank and file of all but the biggest more influential unions. And Tony is going to have us reamed out.
I keep saying it, cos labor have sold out the rank and file of all but the biggest more influential unions. And Tony is going to have us reamed out.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Alabama, then Wyoming, then Idaho and now staying with Kharon on Styx houseboat
Age: 61
Posts: 1,437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Staff Engagement defined?
I don't really keep 'abreast' of CC issues and this is not the usual place for trolley dolly stuff but I heard this morning on the AM shift that 20 Flighties pulled the pin in BNE this week and another 25 finish up next week in BNE? Anyone know if this is true? LHLisa you know anything bout this? I heard a good proportion are headed to Team Borghetti.
If there is a merit of truth in this robust rumor then the answer to Elaines 'staff engagement survey' is in.
The 'gossip' who informed me about this rumor certainly didn't hold back from lambasting the Irish chump, and in front of some passengers as well. Best bit was when the pax started chiming in and agreeing with the 'gossip' and all were using colorful language to be sure! Now technically I should report the 'gossip' for this outlandish behavior however due to the treatment of all staff by the disgraceful management I have proudly kept quiet (except on prune) and will not be reporting this person for their naughty behavior, rather I will be encouraging more of the same.
If there is a merit of truth in this robust rumor then the answer to Elaines 'staff engagement survey' is in.
The 'gossip' who informed me about this rumor certainly didn't hold back from lambasting the Irish chump, and in front of some passengers as well. Best bit was when the pax started chiming in and agreeing with the 'gossip' and all were using colorful language to be sure! Now technically I should report the 'gossip' for this outlandish behavior however due to the treatment of all staff by the disgraceful management I have proudly kept quiet (except on prune) and will not be reporting this person for their naughty behavior, rather I will be encouraging more of the same.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Skating away on the thin ice of a new day.
Posts: 1,116
Received 13 Likes
on
8 Posts
tima9x, some clever editing and re captioning would make it far more entertaining.
gobbledock, it would be shame to lose so many Brissy CC. Some of the best and nicest CC are based there imho.
gobbledock, it would be shame to lose so many Brissy CC. Some of the best and nicest CC are based there imho.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: London-Thailand-Australia
Age: 15
Posts: 1,057
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
tima9x, some clever editing and re captioning would make it far more entertaining.
Speaking outside the Federal Court, Captain Brad Hodson, vice president of the Australian and International Pilots Association, said the pilots' low key industrial action should not have been lumped in with other Qantas' unions industrial campaigns.
''From a cursory view of the judgement it would appear there are judges who agreed our actions were not the problem, it was the action of Alan Joyce to close the airline down that bought this to a head, and thus denied Qantas long haul pilots the ability to bargain,'' he said.
''Our view would be that its very hard to say that wearing a red tie and making a public address announcement is damaging the economy. We got lumped in with other unions which may well have done that.''
''We disagree with Alan Joyce's views of basically shoring up the short term.
''Qantas pilots are going to be here in 5-10 years. Alan Joyce won't (be). It's a legacy that other people like him and (former Qantas CEO) Geoff Dixon have left is the problem.''
Qantas spokeswoman Olivia Wirth said the company was pleased with the Federal Court decision
Read more: Relationship with Joyce strained: pilots
''From a cursory view of the judgement it would appear there are judges who agreed our actions were not the problem, it was the action of Alan Joyce to close the airline down that bought this to a head, and thus denied Qantas long haul pilots the ability to bargain,'' he said.
''Our view would be that its very hard to say that wearing a red tie and making a public address announcement is damaging the economy. We got lumped in with other unions which may well have done that.''
''We disagree with Alan Joyce's views of basically shoring up the short term.
''Qantas pilots are going to be here in 5-10 years. Alan Joyce won't (be). It's a legacy that other people like him and (former Qantas CEO) Geoff Dixon have left is the problem.''
Qantas spokeswoman Olivia Wirth said the company was pleased with the Federal Court decision
Read more: Relationship with Joyce strained: pilots
by hadagutfull; When you look at the who's who from the PM down, and all the past ties, connections, favours, back scratching and big noting... we are pushing Shyte uphill..
The whole thing stinks. They are all a bunch of greedy power mongering judas' who's legacy will infect this country for years to come.
I have little faith in the system these days, but I applaud those who question it and put up a fight.
The whole thing stinks. They are all a bunch of greedy power mongering judas' who's legacy will infect this country for years to come.
I have little faith in the system these days, but I applaud those who question it and put up a fight.
