Planes may leave late in new system - Perth
Icarus, as seems to be usual these days, the ability of those responsible to swallow a sales pitch is better than their ability to deliver.
From a controller perspective anything other than the "natural" sequence or as you said "sequencing as we go" is the only sane way to handle a sequence. Anything else rapidly deteriorates into a dangerous farce.
From a controller perspective anything other than the "natural" sequence or as you said "sequencing as we go" is the only sane way to handle a sequence. Anything else rapidly deteriorates into a dangerous farce.
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The "first come first served" vs METRON/CTMS order is an ongoing debate. Sequencing as they come is easier for ATC (which means safer and less messing a/c about), but gives companies no incentive to follow METRON, and in fact punishes those that do. Ph flows do seem to "deprioritise" early a/c, but it can make life interesting on arrivals.
Possibly you were being sequenced behind a 24 landing?
I have lost count of the times I have been slowed after the feeder fix and then arrive at Woora with nothing between me and the threshold, that is 15nm space infront.
No, I did lookout for that one and no departures off 21 whilst we were inbound from Woora either.
TODAY: 50 minutes holding required during the middle of the day and also early evening as per NOTAM.
So a calculated slot and COBT AND 50 minutes holding required. This is having a bet both ways surely? If everyone is complying with their allocated time why would we need 50 minutes? If someone is not complying then let them hold for 50 minutes, no fuel, well off to the alternate it is then.
Is today a sign of what will happen come winter with all approaches IMC and full STAR flown. If so I am not looking forward to that.
Now you are being dumb on purpose. There is enough slack in the system to allow for last minute changes, there has to be to allow for departures.
TODAY: 50 minutes holding required during the middle of the day and also early evening as per NOTAM.
So a calculated slot and COBT AND 50 minutes holding required. This is having a bet both ways surely? If everyone is complying with their allocated time why would we need 50 minutes? If someone is not complying then let them hold for 50 minutes, no fuel, well off to the alternate it is then.
Is today a sign of what will happen come winter with all approaches IMC and full STAR flown. If so I am not looking forward to that.
Are you implying we just ditch one or the other? If you think you can hit your "published slot time" to the +/- 30 seconds you're better than me. What about if you get held up departing an outport due to traffic? You just arrive 5 minutes late and land in formation with someone at their "landing slot time"?
Thread Starter
If everyone is complying with their allocated time why would we need 50 minutes?
Now you are being dumb on purpose.
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Icarus2001 - I can see only two possibilities. Either there is other traffic that you are not aware of, or PH ATC are waging an extended campaign of malicious unnecessary speed reduction! Tinfoil hat or occam's razor?
I totally agree with the rest though. Ground delays and 50 minutes holding is not having a bet both ways it's extracting the urine. There are three problems though;
1. What to do with aircraft that are late? If you miss your slot by five mintes, and the next available slot is over two hours later (not uncommon) do we hold you for two hours, or fit you in and delay the next two hours worth of arrivals by one slot?
2. The current procedures only allow early aircraft to be "de-prioritised" by the published holding time, which may well be less than the ground delay given.
3. Worst, and I've actually had this happen.
- Aircraft gets 20 minutes of holding.
- Aircraft tells me, as per traffic notam, is only carrying 15 minutes holding.
- Flow won't bring aircraft forward in sequence unless declaring fuel emergency.
- Aircraft declines to declare emergency because is carrying published holding fuel.
- Ask aircraft for alternate, advises not holding one.
- Stalemate.
I totally agree with the rest though. Ground delays and 50 minutes holding is not having a bet both ways it's extracting the urine. There are three problems though;
1. What to do with aircraft that are late? If you miss your slot by five mintes, and the next available slot is over two hours later (not uncommon) do we hold you for two hours, or fit you in and delay the next two hours worth of arrivals by one slot?
2. The current procedures only allow early aircraft to be "de-prioritised" by the published holding time, which may well be less than the ground delay given.
3. Worst, and I've actually had this happen.
- Aircraft gets 20 minutes of holding.
- Aircraft tells me, as per traffic notam, is only carrying 15 minutes holding.
- Flow won't bring aircraft forward in sequence unless declaring fuel emergency.
- Aircraft declines to declare emergency because is carrying published holding fuel.
- Ask aircraft for alternate, advises not holding one.
- Stalemate.
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Nautilus Blue,
Could you please explain what the aircraft has done wrong in your scenario:
Edit: assuming of course that COBT times if applicable were complied with
Could you please explain what the aircraft has done wrong in your scenario:
- Aircraft gets 20 minutes of holding.
- Aircraft tells me, as per traffic notam, is only carrying 15 minutes holding.
- Flow won't bring aircraft forward in sequence unless declaring fuel emergency.
- Aircraft declines to declare emergency because is carrying published holding fuel.
- Ask aircraft for alternate, advises not holding one.
- Stalemate.
Last edited by DraggieDriver; 18th Apr 2012 at 09:06. Reason: added detail
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Sorry, should of said, aircraft was early for its PTL (this was pre METRON). Even if it wasn't, remember the notam traffic holding time is NOT a maximum, it's an estimate.
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Nautilus,
So what would the amount of holding fuel you think aircraft should hold when planning to land in Perth? Personally, I wouldn't depart with less than trip fuel plus holding to PTL, plus NOTAMed holding time, plus Weather holding/alternate as appropriate, plus variable reserve. But you seem to be implying that the minimum requirement isn't enough.
So what would the amount of holding fuel you think aircraft should hold when planning to land in Perth? Personally, I wouldn't depart with less than trip fuel plus holding to PTL, plus NOTAMed holding time, plus Weather holding/alternate as appropriate, plus variable reserve. But you seem to be implying that the minimum requirement isn't enough.
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DD, I guess what i mean is the notamed traffic delay is a forecast. Many crews seem to be under the impression it's a guaranted maximum. It's counter intuitive, but ATC has no control over how much holding is required on the day.
PS, if you need "holding to PTL" does that mean you're leaving earlier than you should
PS, if you need "holding to PTL" does that mean you're leaving earlier than you should
Last edited by Nautilus Blue; 19th Apr 2012 at 08:09.
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It seems from the arrivals controller point of view that things have improved slightly over the past few weeks. Maybe the new system is doing it a little better, maybe not. There's been a discussion amongst us that non conformers or those being punished should be sent to an arbitrary waypoint off the published route (maybe called NORTY?) so that they aren't causing grief in a pattern while everyone else is coming through?
One bizarre trend that has become apparent is that when the big delay notams go out, there actually seems to be a lot less holding. Is that coincidence or do the notams encourage flights to be more time compliant?
One bizarre trend that has become apparent is that when the big delay notams go out, there actually seems to be a lot less holding. Is that coincidence or do the notams encourage flights to be more time compliant?
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The recent trend, from a passenger point of view, is that we seem to be doing a lot more waiting on the ground, prior to take-off, than holding in the air, recently. I always fly in on those peak periods. Previously, became accustomed to holding well north, watching other aircraft holding with us, or do the long way around, approaching from the south via Australind
Not uncommon to actually load and shut, then wait for an extended period. Then taxi out (last a/c for the day), and wait , lined up, for last light before actually getting airborne. Or, aircraft lands a bit late, does a VERY quick turnaround and buggers off, when they have obviously been given a favourable slot time, and mean to make it. It does seem to have changed.
Not uncommon to actually load and shut, then wait for an extended period. Then taxi out (last a/c for the day), and wait , lined up, for last light before actually getting airborne. Or, aircraft lands a bit late, does a VERY quick turnaround and buggers off, when they have obviously been given a favourable slot time, and mean to make it. It does seem to have changed.
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Anyone who has flown outside of this little sheltered workshop will know what a turd PH airport and it's delays are.
I'm not saying its the ATCs fault ( although as in any outfit there is clearly some incompetence there ) but the sort of delays that are being dished out at this so called " busy " airport are ridiculous.
From the time you enter PH airspace til the time you try to get a taxi home is a complete clusterfcuk and the place is well deserved to be in the 10 worst airports in the world.
As far as notam holding being a forecast , WTF ? Another WA first ? So you suggest maybe just filling the A/C and if that's not enough divert ? What a great attitude and typical of Wait Awhile.
I'm not saying its the ATCs fault ( although as in any outfit there is clearly some incompetence there ) but the sort of delays that are being dished out at this so called " busy " airport are ridiculous.
From the time you enter PH airspace til the time you try to get a taxi home is a complete clusterfcuk and the place is well deserved to be in the 10 worst airports in the world.
As far as notam holding being a forecast , WTF ? Another WA first ? So you suggest maybe just filling the A/C and if that's not enough divert ? What a great attitude and typical of Wait Awhile.
HKF ( for a change ) is on the money. Friend of mine that does FIFO told me he is getting delayed just as much with these COBTs as ever and that he has proof that not everybody is getting stuffed around equally.
Perth airport is NOT busy in the scheme of things although the archaic procedures and ridiculous seperation do make it seem so. If Beijing, for example, applied the wonderful Perth system your delay could be tracked on a calendar.
Maybe somebody needs to go to the mining companies and let them know how much these delays are costing them, see how someone like Andrew Forrest reacts to being told PH airport is costing him 10s of 1000s of dollars a month, I'm sure he'd be happy ?
Perth airport is NOT busy in the scheme of things although the archaic procedures and ridiculous seperation do make it seem so. If Beijing, for example, applied the wonderful Perth system your delay could be tracked on a calendar.
Maybe somebody needs to go to the mining companies and let them know how much these delays are costing them, see how someone like Andrew Forrest reacts to being told PH airport is costing him 10s of 1000s of dollars a month, I'm sure he'd be happy ?
Thread Starter
Good to see the loonies are back in force. 
Are you suggesting ATC just forget the traffic holding NOTAMs and let the crews deal with "guess what, hold for 40 mins NOW"? At least ATC is using it's noggin and pre-empting the approaching SNAFU by warning all that there may be some severe holding based on the previous demonstrated inability of some operators to stick to their slot times.
On the ground or in the air? Of course there are going to be delays. The idea is to make them ground delays, not airborne. The times of delays will probably be very close to the same as before.
[quote-ADBF]he has proof that not everybody is getting stuffed around equally.[/quote]
Obviously if you jump the queue and cop only 10 minutes air holding you're going to look better to the SLF than the other crowd who do the right thing, take a 20 minute ground delay and then cop a 10 airborne delay.
My understanding is that they have been told, time and again, that their scheduling is creating the problem.
I doubt it.
Originally Posted by Fooey
As far as notam holding being a forecast , WTF ?
Originally Posted by DualBleedFault
Friend of mine that does FIFO told me he is getting delayed just as much with these COBTs as ever
[quote-ADBF]he has proof that not everybody is getting stuffed around equally.[/quote]
Obviously if you jump the queue and cop only 10 minutes air holding you're going to look better to the SLF than the other crowd who do the right thing, take a 20 minute ground delay and then cop a 10 airborne delay.
Originally Posted by ADBF again
Maybe somebody needs to go to the mining companies and let them know how much these delays are costing them
PH airport is costing him 10s of 1000s of dollars a month, I'm sure he'd be happy ?
Seems a bit ignorant to say Perth isn't a busy airport doesn't it. So many here claim overseas airports are so much busier than Australian airports quoting annual movements as the evidence, eg the Brisbane Gatwick comparison 250k vs 200k a few pages back.
Is it not obvious that a certain airport will have a maximum capacity based on the number of runways, high speed exits, taxiway structure etc. If an airport only does 100 movements per day is that a busy airport? What if those 100 movements are scheduled between 4 and 5 pm and the airport has one runway and one taxiway? Sounds like this is the case with FIFO in PH.
You can have all the bells and whistles you want helping the controller, but he is still not going to be able to put anymore aircraft on the runway than he could with just a RADAR screen and a microphone. If you look at the runway occupancy during these peaks im pretty sure you'll find there's not alot of wasted asphalt.
How pilots can pass judgement on an ATCs perfomance is beyond me. He may think he knows whats going on when really he has no idea. If you think you can do a better job. Go get your license and fix the 'problem'.
Is it not obvious that a certain airport will have a maximum capacity based on the number of runways, high speed exits, taxiway structure etc. If an airport only does 100 movements per day is that a busy airport? What if those 100 movements are scheduled between 4 and 5 pm and the airport has one runway and one taxiway? Sounds like this is the case with FIFO in PH.
You can have all the bells and whistles you want helping the controller, but he is still not going to be able to put anymore aircraft on the runway than he could with just a RADAR screen and a microphone. If you look at the runway occupancy during these peaks im pretty sure you'll find there's not alot of wasted asphalt.
How pilots can pass judgement on an ATCs perfomance is beyond me. He may think he knows whats going on when really he has no idea. If you think you can do a better job. Go get your license and fix the 'problem'.
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ICARUS 2001.
I queried that exact point with ATC last week, as well as others.
Reply was safety concern due Tarmac works adjacent to bays 19 -21.
I'm still scratching my head as to where those works preclude the use of RWY 03 & 06 for departures
K-Ex.
I queried that exact point with ATC last week, as well as others.
Reply was safety concern due Tarmac works adjacent to bays 19 -21.
I'm still scratching my head as to where those works preclude the use of RWY 03 & 06 for departures
K-Ex.
Unless QF has built in a fudge factor for COBT, Andrew Forrest couldn't give a rats arse. He wants his workers delivered to the mines. Its the airlines and their contract price that have to sort the rest out. If the delays due holding cost money then its costings Qantas, unless they've fudged it. I would have.........
Thread Starter
I queried that exact point with ATC last week, as well as others.
Reply was safety concern due Tarmac works adjacent to bays 19 -21.
I'm still scratching my head as to where those works preclude the use of RWY 03 & 06 for departures
Reply was safety concern due Tarmac works adjacent to bays 19 -21.
I'm still scratching my head as to where those works preclude the use of RWY 03 & 06 for departures
So, to the ATC guys/gals out there, who are the non-comformers?